Grammar test for 11 year olds - the Rosen View

[Daogroupie]

It wasn't teacher specific. I had a bunch of siblings at the same school who all had different teachers and the Head's son was in my year and his daughter was in my sister's year and his elder son was in my elder sister' s year and his wife taught English at the school as well. I read out a statement from him at my appeals board. Grammar was not taught at the school. DG

[Amber]

I don't want any student to ever feel the misery and humiliation I was made to feel as a result of a decision that I didn't even know about at the time.

I am sure none of us would want prospective state school students of Anglo-Saxon to be thus exposed; absolutely.

I managed to emerge from a state school with no grammar teaching either (except in German classes), no Latin, no Anglo-Saxon either, and somehow was spared this humiliation and misery and attained two language degrees. Nonetheless I feel that I ought to clarify that my original post was in no way a call to abandon grammar teaching. However, when I ventured briefly back into primary school teaching about 8 years ago, I was somewhat horrified by the spectacle of five-year olds learning what a split digraph was (this was in the phonics heyday) when many of them couldn't even get themselves dressed; and my own children had to write formulaic, tedious stories which had been drafted and redrafted using VCOP pyramids. I feel what Rosen is saying is that there are degrees of this, and if the baby of creativity is thrown down the plughole with the bathwater of dodgy grammar, then something very important has been lost. There are precedents for English politicians deciding that something is A Jolly Good Idea because they did it at school and it sounds good to voters; and then for these same ideas to fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. Teach grammar by all means, but if it comes to being the only or main criterion by which a piece of work is judged, then something has gone wrong. There need to be voices against this.

I recently attended a Latin taster day at the Cambridge Classics department with my dd and 15 other 16/17/18 year students (with a big crop of A stars between them) and a few parents...The tutor asked a series of grammar questions on the whiteboard and I was the only person in the room who was able to answer them and only because of what I had to do to get through that Anglo Saxon exam.

I think you have a very tolerant daughter, as an aside! Some young people I know (most?) would have been out of the door at the mere hint that their mother was about to ask a question, let alone attempt to answer one!

[scary mum]

Nonetheless I feel that I ought to clarify that my original post was in no way a call to abandon grammar teaching

Sorry, I kind of diverted the conversation inadvertently!

I think you have a very tolerant daughter, as an aside! Some young people I know (most?) would have been out of the door at the mere hint that their mother was about to ask a question, let alone attempt to answer one!

Mine certainly would. At a recent school meeting I could feels DS next to me, twitching because he knew I had something to say on the matter being discussed & terrified I might put my hand up (I didn't, but raised the issue afterwards )

[Catseye]

There is nothing more irritating than the grammar(or should it {or that should }be Grammar ) police scrutinising everything we dyslexics write or try to express, it's usually because they cannot counter our logical and balanced arguments. :roll

[Tolstoy]

There is nothing more irritating than the grammar(or should it{or that } be Grammar ) police scrutinising everything we dyslexics write or try to express, it's usually because they cannot counter our logical and balanced arguments.

... +1. But also why for dyslexics a thorough teaching of it is absolutely necessary.

Have googled split -diagraphs and yes ridiculously young age to be encountering it but know it is done.

I think there in lies the problem we often try to teach these things when the vast majority of DC aren't ready.

Daogroupie , I wasn't inferring you were at the mercy of the teacher rather that some escaped our situation by being lucky enough to have an 'old school ' teacher who still prioritized Grammar. Mine sadly didn't . I truly believe that in order to be confidently creative with your writing you do need a good grounding in Grammar.

However Amber is correct as creativity has been seriously downgraded of late. Why is it always this way, one or the other, and it is not just in this area. Gee just listening to my friends describing what is going on in Wales with GCSEs and A'levels at the moment is and makes me mightily relieved we moved.

[Rob Clark]

I was somewhat horrified by the spectacle of five-year olds learning what a split digraph was

Amber, I don't know what this is now, and I'm a lot older than 5! I'm not sure whether to be proud or concerned about my lack of knowledge, but I've somehow managed to acquire an English degree and write some books and magazines without it. Lucky break I guess.

[mad?]

I was somewhat horrified by the spectacle of five-year olds learning what a split digraph was

Amber, I don't know what this is now, and I'm a lot older than 5! I'm not sure whether to be proud or concerned about my lack of knowledge, but I've somehow managed to acquire an English degree and write some books and magazines without it. Lucky break I guess.

All that private schooling Rob

[PurpleDuck]

We don't want any more generations of adults who don't understand how their own language works. I don't care how prescriptive Rosen thinks it is, it needs to be done. DG

+1

[mystery]

I think the problem is a generation if teachers who can't teach any of the stuff that Rosen moans about well because a) they don't know it, b) they don't know how to teach it c) they've been on useless teacher training courses d) they haven't got time to find out what it is or how to teach it.

Risen's books are great but he can be incredibly annoying when he bangs on about aspects of education he knows little about e.g. Phonics.
In recent years he was trying to make out schools were throwing away good books because of phonics. If he really knew schools that were doing that he could have used his intelligence to help them realise that was not necessary rather than trying to make more money selling badly researched anti-phonics articles himself.

We're going on a bear hunt.

Ps. This particular article of his is good in its criticisms of the questions and the curriculum.

[JaneEyre]

My American friend's experience in her own words:

I studied in England at the University of Leeds in 1983, on an exchange program. Because my major at uni was English, I took a grammar course and a grammar tutorial (small size course limited to 6 people). The class was incredibly simple, but most of the students behaved as if the material was all new. I was shocked because it seemed like a 8th grade class to me at most.

At one point, I even corrected the professor in the tutorial!

I haven't had exposure to grammar class in my own country in a long time, but I think the trend (the trends are sent in England) is to ignore grammar in favor of content, which is a big mistake, I think.