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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Hi All,

I know this question has been asked many times on the forum in general, but does anyone know definitively the answer to the following....

.... regarding the question type seen in NFER Verbal papers:-

'Placing the right numbers in an arithmetic equation' - do you work from left to right or use the BODMAS rule?

As you all know, my DD did not get close to getting in to Kendrick and we have completely accepted that. I'm just trying to get some 'closure' on why she underperformed, particularly in the Verbal test (I have discovered her raw score was 82 out of 100 - a low score by her usual standards).

She thinks it was the above-described question type that she must have got wrong - amongst others admittedly - of which she thinks there were about six to eight questions in total.

The other reason I am curious is because out of 10 girls at my DD's primary school who took the test and who are all in the top set for maths and are generally pretty bright girls - not ONE girl got an automatic place at Kendrick, surprisingly :o

Does anyone mind sharing their thoughts on this? I'd be most grateful.

Ella

PS - Don't worry, we ARE going to accept her place at Maiden Erlegh and this is NOT a case of Sour Grapes or anything :) - I am genuinely pleased to those who successfully got in ! :D :D


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Hi Ella,

Have viewed twice so will offer my thoughts.

Kendrick is NFER VR standard. Have just had a look at some papers and the "How to Guide" from tutors on this site,

http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/pdf/th ... hnique.pdf

All of the questions should be worked out from left to right. There are no
other mathematical issues to consider when answering these questions.


The sample questions I have with me at work ( CGP std ) all fit this rule , examples,

B x C div E
C x B - D
A div B x E + C

but I can understand how under exam pressure in an effort to simplify you may look at the right hand side and take away or add to get rid of one term, leading to an incorrect answer.

Try posting in the VR section for an expert opinion. :)


stevew61


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Or was it this type? Tutors again,

'I' questions

2 + 3 = 4 + ( ? ) answer 1

6 x 8 + 10 = 7 x 9 - ( ? ) answer 5

A good knowledge of times table and basic arithmetic should get him through. There is no need to know BODMAS for these questions as they can all be worked out from left to right.


stevew61


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Hi Steve,

Thanks for your replies.

The question type I am referring to is neither of the two that you have described which are part of the NFER 21 standard types (but thanks for the clear explanation anyway!).

It is the type where you are given a set of numbers and a set of arithmetical signs, eg,

(6 7 8 9 10) ( x + ) = 73

and you have to use three of the numbers to make up the answer (in this case the numbers used would be 7, 9 and 10, ie, 7 x 9 + 10 = 73).

I think the above example is fairly simplistic and the BODMAS rule would obviously make no difference and also, the actual ones in the Kendrick test were probably a lot more complicated. But, hopefully, you get my drift!

I just wondered if it's possible that the girls would have been expected to know and understand BODMAS in order to get the correct answer. :?

Perhaps we'll never know :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:49 pm 
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Ella wrote:
the actual ones in the Kendrick test were probably a lot more complicated.:roll:


Thanks. Something else for me to worry about. :)

stevew61


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:32 pm 
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I don't know, Ella, will ask DD when she gets home. I think it would be very unfair to lose marks for NOT knowing BODMAS, so can't really see it happening.

I see what you're asking though, you're wondering whether they might have been something like ... erm ...
(2, 3, 4, 6, 10) (- x) = 42
and you'd have to give an answer of
(10-3)x6

But if they haven't learnt brackets or BODMAS, they'd just write 10 - 3 x 6 wouldn't they, so you're wondering whether they could be penalised for that? I hope not, that doesn't seem right at all.

How did you get her raw scores, btw? Have to admit to curiosity here!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Ella wrote:
It is the type where you are given a set of numbers and a set of arithmetical signs, eg,

(6 7 8 9 10) ( x + ) = 73

and you have to use three of the numbers to make up the answer (in this case the numbers used would be 7, 9 and 10, ie, 7 x 9 + 10 = 73).



Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but I am confused :?

I have not seen this type of NFER question before :shock: . Ella, if you don't mind, could you please advise where this is from.
Thankyou

:D

BW


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Bewildered wrote:
Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but I am confused :?
I have not seen this type of NFER question before :shock: .
BW


Hi BW,

Welcome to the world of Kendrick :) NFER standard and probably extended format. Good news two papers :) bad news loads of questions and you need to hit 90% :cry:

I am still on a steep learning curve. Any Kendrick tutors out there who can help?


stevew61


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:31 pm 
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Thanks for posting Aliportico.... I'm sure you're right and they would not expect a Y6 state primary school child to know about BODMAS. I just thought I would check that I wasn't missing something.

I got my DD's raw scores by Emailing and asking for them simply because we were surprised that her standardised score (particularly in VR) did not seem to reflect how she performed in practice. I was more than a bit surprised they readily gave them to me :shock:

BW,

The question that I quoted was from a Step-by-Step paper (purchased from this site). Like you, I have NEVER seen it on any NFER paper, or indeed any other publisher's papers. My DD says that the Kendrick test definitely contained several of these and she *thought* she had cracked them, but perhaps not. :roll: :( By the way, the Step-by-Step paper instructs you to work from left to right.

Thanks for all your feedback and comments - it's interesting to get more views.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:51 pm 
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I would hope and imagine that each question is carefully set so as to only have one unambiguous correct answer. But no one's perfect and I don't suppose the NFER setters are either!

Just showed DD, and asked her if she had seen questions like that: "Erm .. no ... erm ... I guess ... erm ... dunno ... " Sorry, no help!


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