Pupil premium

[kenyancowgirl]

Well said, Stroller.

Any GS which is making the effort to increase PP participation should be applauded and any family that accesses that (non-fradulently) should also be applauded. PP children are who GS were originally set up to help.

[MSD]

Firstly, I pretty much agree with all the above views and can't be entirely sure, without looking at the stats, if there is any co-relation between the qualifying scores and the future achievement of children at grammar schools.

The whole idea behind pupil premium places is to be provide a level playing field for children who cannot afford an independent education, hours of tuition and all the other necessary tools which are available to their contemporaries. And in this instance, I don't believe for a minute that they won't cope at the school, and if anything, they might outshine their peers.

The issue here is the children qualifying for pupil premium, and having all the necessary tools at their disposal. Isn't the whole idea behind selection to chose the brightest 20 to 25%? Yes, the ones who were disadvantaged must be given a chance, but why should the system select the less disadvantaged, achieving a score of 200, which is an average score for all cohort taking the test.

The tutor we used for both our boys runs an extensive assessment before taking the children on for 11+. And there are three possible black and white outcomes of her assessment.

1. The child is extremely bright, and will fly through the exam without her help. So she politely informs the parents there is absolutely no need for wasting their money on her services.

2. The child is capable, however, she can make a further 10 to 15% improvement in their score to help them qualify.

3. The child isn't bright and fairly unlikely to pass. The parent would waste their money, and the child would generally struggle in a GS environment in the long run.

I wonder what happens to the third criteria when she knows the child qualifies for a PP place. Would she just take the child on as the qualifying criteria isn't the same now.

Apologies, crossed with KCG

MSD

[onebigdilemma]

My son who has just started at GS got told last week that the school had looked at the latest GCSE results and compared these with the students 11 plus score. They found that on average that the children with lower 11 plus pass scores did better in their GCSEs.
This reassured my son who got a place off the waiting list!!

[guest201]

It annoys me all the argument about the PP places. The score a child gets is based on 3 areas NVR maths and VR. A child who is particularly good at literacy could easily achieve a place at GS with a standardised score of say 146 in VR and 100 (or even lower) in Maths/ NVR. Will this child struggle in GS? Who knows? if you look at the overall result 246, you would think not, but if you break it down maths and NVR are "average". What I am trying to say is that maybe the PP children can gain a place with a lower standardised score but unless you break the scores down by sections it is difficult analyse anything. How many good all-rounders are there in GS who scored well on all 3 sections? How many have got in on the back of a good result in VR, and average in NVR/maths or vice versa?
Once they start school anything can happen and I think it is unfair to assume that just because a child's overall score was lower than others they have only got in through the" PP back door" and therefore they will struggle.

[MSD]

It annoys me all the argument about the PP places. The score a child gets is based on 3 areas NVR maths and VR. A child who is particularly good at literacy could easily achieve a place at GS with a standardised score of say 146 in VR and 100 (or even lower) in Maths/ NVR. Will this child struggle in GS? Who knows? if you look at the overall result 246, you would think not, but if you break it down maths and NVR are "average". What I am trying to say is that maybe the PP children can gain a place with a lower standardised score but unless you break the scores down by sections it is difficult analyse anything. How many good all-rounders are there in GS who scored well on all 3 sections? How many have got in on the back of a good result in VR, and average in NVR/maths or vice versa?
Once they start school anything can happen and I think it is unfair to assume that just because a child's overall score was lower than others they have only got in through the" PP back door" and therefore they will struggle.

Completely agree! However, if Child A sat next to Child B for an entire year, receiving the same tuition from the same tutor, would it be fair for Child A to get in with 20 less standardized points, and Child B not to find a place in same school.

[onebigdilemma]

PP children I know would never have received tutoring and on the whole the families would not either know about GS in our area or be aware that they were free and open for anyone to apply.
In the disadvantaged areas that I work in people often still feel GS is just for posh snobs!
There is a long way to go to make it an equal playing field.

[MSD]

PP children I know would never have received tutoring and on the whole the families would not either know about GS in our area or be aware that they were free and open for anyone to apply.

No doubt, vast majority don't! But I personally know quite a few who receive the same tuition as us and, in some cases, even more.

[Tolstoy]

PP children I know would never have received tutoring and on the whole the families would not either know about GS in our area or be aware that they were free and open for anyone to apply.
In the disadvantaged areas that I work in people often still feel GS is just for posh snobs!
There is a long way to go to make it an equal playing field.

Very true. MSD as stroller (I think it was) pointed out the only thing you can do is report those people who are manipulating the system.

[MSD]

Very true. MSD as stroller (I think it was) pointed out the only thing you can do is report those people who are manipulating the system.

Yes, of course! But report what exactly .. that the parent is self employed with a minimum income, and can spend thousands on a tuition. I doubt they will take it

I guess no one has a solution to stop people abusing the system. May be they can start by not looking back 6 years to see if the child was on free meals - it's the current income that should matter.

[Tolstoy]

Very true. MSD as stroller (I think it was) pointed out the only thing you can do is report those people who are manipulating the system.

Yes, of course! But report what exactly .. that the parent is self employed with a minimum income, and can spend thousands on a tuition. I doubt they will take it

I guess no one has a solution to stop people abusing the system. May be they can start by not looking back 6 years to see if the child was on free meals - it's the current income that should matter.

If they are self employed on minimum income and can afford tuition then the inland revenue would be a good start. I hate it when people manipulate the system because it is the genuine poor who miss out.