Old SATS levels in year 5

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um
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Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by um »

koala wrote:Interesting discussion from some years ago on SATS levels and grammar school, particularly the post from fm.

http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... hg#p241575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd posted on that quote that my ds1 was a level 4 in English at the end of Year 6.
Not a great precursor for KECHB entry you might think.
At the time I was pretty relaxed - after all, Michael Rosen, the author and poet, took a KS2 English SATs test and gained a level 4 too :D

I can update, for what it's worth, that ds1 gained A* in English Language and in English Literature for GCSE last year, scoring 100% in at least one component.

Moral of the story (the point was not to boast!!!!) - I am not convinced that KS2 literacy SATs are actually a great indicator of literacy. Especially now that the ability to identify a subordinating conjunction and fill your writing with semi-colons seems to transcend genuine creativity and an enriched vocabulary :roll:
um
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Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by um »

Petitpois wrote:I think 4a would be ball park start of year. My DD is heading towards level 6 but I would say she was 5b towards end year 5.

They'll be doing scaled scores for the first time this year , no Age standardisation. That will be interesting.

4b at end of year 6 would be no good in my view

PP
Just saw this now :lol:
gingerly67
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Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by gingerly67 »

um wrote:I am not convinced that KS2 literacy SATs are actually a great indicator of literacy. Especially now that the ability to identify a subordinating conjunction and fill your writing with semi-colons seems to transcend genuine creativity and an enriched vocabulary
I agree - but actually to make the opposite point. Neither have literacy SATs up to now been all that good (in my opinion) at measuring children's grasp of grammar or ability to analyse and manipulate language - important for any later language/MFL study as well as more generally. The new curriculum actually seems improved to me in its increased focus on the structures of language and arguably comes closer to the aims of 11+ testing - to assess verbal skills in general. Would be interested to know what anyone else thinks - sorry, not really the topic here, I know!
um
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Location: Birmingham

Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by um »

The problem with literacy is that making a judgement is very qualitative - unlike Maths where essentially, you have a 'correct' answer (or not).

In order to get around this, and in the wake of constant protests about the way the English writing SATs were moderated and marked, the government have devised tests for literacy that are more quantitative, such as correctly identifying grammar terms and using punctuation correctly...

After all, it's easier and less contentious to count semi-colons than to make a qualitative judgement on breadth of plot, flair and creativity and richness of vocabulary and the level of figurative language/poetic devices used.

We may need to take this conversation over to the 'English' section...but for now, you may wish to look at some of Michael Rosen's twitter postings on this, including a number from academics.
Petitpois
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Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by Petitpois »

gingerly67 wrote:
um wrote:I am not convinced that KS2 literacy SATs are actually a great indicator of literacy. Especially now that the ability to identify a subordinating conjunction and fill your writing with semi-colons seems to transcend genuine creativity and an enriched vocabulary
I agree - but actually to make the opposite point. Neither have literacy SATs up to now been all that good (in my opinion) at measuring children's grasp of grammar or ability to analyse and manipulate language - important for any later language/MFL study as well as more generally. The new curriculum actually seems improved to me in its increased focus on the structures of language and arguably comes closer to the aims of 11+ testing - to assess verbal skills in general. Would be interested to know what anyone else thinks - sorry, not really the topic here, I know!
Neither SATs or scaled scores will age standardise. However they good enough as a rough idea. If your kid can not do times tables (never reads) at year 5 this will show up in both the SATs and 11+
MSD
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Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by MSD »

um wrote:
Petitpois wrote:I think 4a would be ball park start of year. My DD is heading towards level 6 but I would say she was 5b towards end year 5.

They'll be doing scaled scores for the first time this year , no Age standardisation. That will be interesting.

4b at end of year 6 would be no good in my view

PP
Just saw this now :lol:
:lol: :lol:

Do you want to change your mind PP on level 4 no good bit?
Petitpois
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by Petitpois »

MSD wrote:
um wrote:
Petitpois wrote:I think 4a would be ball park start of year. My DD is heading towards level 6 but I would say she was 5b towards end year 5.

They'll be doing scaled scores for the first time this year , no Age standardisation. That will be interesting.

4b at end of year 6 would be no good in my view

PP
Just saw this now :lol:
:lol: :lol:

Do you want to change your mind PP on level 4 no good bit?
Okay 4b would be okay, but I would definitely stand by a 3c. All the level 3 at my DD's school, did not get above 200 or 300 in the tests. Many of the 4's got 210-225 and I would say were pretty bright kids, just needed a bit of tuition. Real shame where kids didn't get much in the way of tuition and just scored shy (whether DIY or paid).

The big comparison will come in this year scaled scores, my DD got 39/40 in her mock sats at school this week, which reflect the strong score she got. I think her scaled maths score will be something like 125-130 (which broadly matches the 130 she got on WSC). They have said that 100 roughly equates to Level 4, but no comparison beyond that can be made.

Still I bet scaled scores start being used as a rough equivalent even those they will not be comparable.
MSD
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:08 pm

Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by MSD »

My son sat the new scaled SATS Mocks few weeks back and found it lot easier than the previous ones. Achieved 100% on Maths(110/110).

There is absolutely no time pressure on these Maths tests - he tells me that he finished one of the Maths test in approx 3 minutes, when the allocated time was 30 mins or so :shock: :shock:

And this is why it's essential to train the kids on the timing element for 11+. You can quite easily have a child scoring 100% in Maths SATS but really struggle to complete the 11+ paper due to time.
Petitpois
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by Petitpois »

MSD wrote:My son sat the new scaled SATS Mocks few weeks back and found it lot easier than the previous ones. Achieved 100% on Maths(110/110).

There is absolutely no time pressure on these Maths tests - he tells me that he finished one of the Maths test in approx 3 minutes, when the allocated time was 30 mins or so :shock: :shock:

And this is why it's essential to train the kids on the timing element for 11+. You can quite easily have a child scoring 100% in Maths SATS but really struggle to complete the 11+ paper due to time.
+1000% from me, no mathematical pun intended
gingerly67
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:45 pm

Re: Old SATS levels in year 5

Post by gingerly67 »

crazycrofter wrote:I'm finding it hard to judge where ds (year 5) is at as he's been home educated since the summer term of year 4 and year 4 was a wasted year anyway, with constant supply teachers.

I would recommend doing any of the benchmark tests, e.g. in CGP's CEM 11+ study books, which may give you a clearer idea of where your DC is and any areas of weakness. I was a sucker for anything with CEM on the cover, but apart from that, in my panic about levels, I bought a Bright Stars (or something) book 'How to achieve Level 5 English' (lured in by the title). I don't think we used it at all as it turned out to be completely irrelevant to the CEM test. I think it's better to focus very closely on CEM 11+ material (of which there is now a boatload) rather than worry too much about SATs predictions/practice tests.
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