The Final Stretch ...
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Re: The Final Stretch ...
Paperwork showed 2 qualifying scores - a general one and a pupil premium qualifying score. I did wonder if I understood properly but there was a lovely flowchart too 
I guess its partially to ensure that they don't have to offer places below a certain score just to ensure they fill places but that would not be an issue with the number of applicants in Brum. It might help parents make better decisions about the CAF though.
I guess its partially to ensure that they don't have to offer places below a certain score just to ensure they fill places but that would not be an issue with the number of applicants in Brum. It might help parents make better decisions about the CAF though.
UmSusu
Re: The Final Stretch ...
Info on qualifying score here https://www.birminghamgrammarschools.or ... ligibility
They KE state grammars and BV quite clearly say this applies to any candidate.
Quasi / MSD - yes this comes into play at the moment for pupil premium students (who are currently accepted at a slightly lower score than cut-off) and I think in 2014 there was some confusion for new parents and some assumed achieving the qualifying score guaranteed a place. I know it was reported here but can't recall details of whether this was a pupil premium parent or non-pupil premium.
I think the point about the qualifying score is that although over-subscribed, these schools can't predict secondary transfer preference order. I've personally known non-pupil premium parents put ordinary comprehensives before KE grammars in Birmingham and this has been raised by others here as well. This kind of thing happens and can't be predicted - just through confusion about the secondary transfer system of entry. (And the case I know about was in Birmingham - they were English - one a Birmingham/ Black Country native). Q-score is there to cover the unknown interval between cut-off to PAN and last entry off waitlist whilst avoiding filling all places regardless of score for any candidate.
So yes quasi/ MSD this comes into play largely for pupil premium candidates because the schools are recognising there are reasons why they may not achieve as highly as better off pupils on the 11+ - and accepting pupil premium students at a slightly lower score than cut-off - but the qualifying score applies to any candidate.
I also think expansion at the KE grammars/ BV was a reflection of the increased pressure on school places due to a baby boom since 2002/ 3. Birmingham needs every school place occupied and rules were tightened up and formalised about admissions/ transfers around 2013/14 because of this huge rise in pupil numbers across all schools in Birmingham. I strongly suspect the qualifying score concept has always been in place but was not explicitly stated because of historic demand for places and competition at exam for these schools meant it has not come into play.
They KE state grammars and BV quite clearly say this applies to any candidate.
Quasi / MSD - yes this comes into play at the moment for pupil premium students (who are currently accepted at a slightly lower score than cut-off) and I think in 2014 there was some confusion for new parents and some assumed achieving the qualifying score guaranteed a place. I know it was reported here but can't recall details of whether this was a pupil premium parent or non-pupil premium.
I think the point about the qualifying score is that although over-subscribed, these schools can't predict secondary transfer preference order. I've personally known non-pupil premium parents put ordinary comprehensives before KE grammars in Birmingham and this has been raised by others here as well. This kind of thing happens and can't be predicted - just through confusion about the secondary transfer system of entry. (And the case I know about was in Birmingham - they were English - one a Birmingham/ Black Country native). Q-score is there to cover the unknown interval between cut-off to PAN and last entry off waitlist whilst avoiding filling all places regardless of score for any candidate.
So yes quasi/ MSD this comes into play largely for pupil premium candidates because the schools are recognising there are reasons why they may not achieve as highly as better off pupils on the 11+ - and accepting pupil premium students at a slightly lower score than cut-off - but the qualifying score applies to any candidate.
I also think expansion at the KE grammars/ BV was a reflection of the increased pressure on school places due to a baby boom since 2002/ 3. Birmingham needs every school place occupied and rules were tightened up and formalised about admissions/ transfers around 2013/14 because of this huge rise in pupil numbers across all schools in Birmingham. I strongly suspect the qualifying score concept has always been in place but was not explicitly stated because of historic demand for places and competition at exam for these schools meant it has not come into play.
Re: The Final Stretch ...
Apologies if this is a dumb question...
If a school doesn't fill all its pupil premium places because insufficient pupil premium candidates meet the pupil premium qualifying score, do they leave those places empty or do they get offered to non pupil premium candidates who have met their qualifying score?
Or is that not an issue anyway because there are always enough pupil premium candidates who have met the pupil premium qualifying score?
Thank you.
If a school doesn't fill all its pupil premium places because insufficient pupil premium candidates meet the pupil premium qualifying score, do they leave those places empty or do they get offered to non pupil premium candidates who have met their qualifying score?
Or is that not an issue anyway because there are always enough pupil premium candidates who have met the pupil premium qualifying score?
Thank you.
Re: The Final Stretch ...
Hi Manon
In 2015 intake (2014 exam and first year with pupil premium places) not all pupil premium places were filled. I don't know if these were then filled by general applicants or not for all KE grammars - but my impression was the untaken pupil premium places were filled by General applicants because of school overcrowding pressures here in Birmingham. And indeed I know that the last score in for schools really dropped from initial cut-off.
My understanding is that for the 2016 intake (2015 11+ exam) all pupil premium places filled.
I think the scheme is better advertised and some of the schools are actively promoting
the opportunity to pupil premium students and schools. However this is only year 3 of the scheme and it's very difficult to predict how things will go in terms of pupil premium scores - nevertheless when entry score info was available in March people were discussing the possibility of a future with no significant difference between pupil premium and general applicant scores.
In 2015 intake (2014 exam and first year with pupil premium places) not all pupil premium places were filled. I don't know if these were then filled by general applicants or not for all KE grammars - but my impression was the untaken pupil premium places were filled by General applicants because of school overcrowding pressures here in Birmingham. And indeed I know that the last score in for schools really dropped from initial cut-off.
My understanding is that for the 2016 intake (2015 11+ exam) all pupil premium places filled.
I think the scheme is better advertised and some of the schools are actively promoting
the opportunity to pupil premium students and schools. However this is only year 3 of the scheme and it's very difficult to predict how things will go in terms of pupil premium scores - nevertheless when entry score info was available in March people were discussing the possibility of a future with no significant difference between pupil premium and general applicant scores.
Re: The Final Stretch ...
I didn't want to discuss results prior to the exam - people are nervous enough already - but UmSusu raises a good point. If your child has scored below the qualifying score they do not qualify for a place at any of the KE grammar schools/ Bishop Vessey or Sutton Coldfield Girls School. In that situation (not achieving qualifying score) there is no point putting down a grammar school on your child's secondary transfer form.UmSusu wrote:I guess its partially to ensure that they don't have to offer places below a certain score just to ensure they fill places but that would not be an issue with the number of applicants in Brum. It might help parents make better decisions about the CAF though.
My understanding is prior to 2013 some parents only put down grammar schools, even if their child had a very low score or hadn't taken the test at all.
Re: The Final Stretch ...
Thank you OT - I agree with you about the scheme being better advertised/promoted so not filling the places is now less likely to arise. I just wondered what would happen if it did - it would be a shame for the places to go unfilled.
And thank you too for your second point. It is all well and good to be optimistic but I think a healthy dose of reality is also wise!
And thank you too for your second point. It is all well and good to be optimistic but I think a healthy dose of reality is also wise!
Re: The Final Stretch ...
They will be filled by non pupil premium candidates. I would not be surprised if the last cut-off for pupil premium places for most grammar schools is way beyond the minimum qualifying score. The qualifying scores of PP candidates will only get better in years to come. At some point there will be hardly any difference in the last cut-off of PP and non PP.Manon wrote:Apologies if this is a dumb question...
If a school doesn't fill all its pupil premium places because insufficient pupil premium candidates meet the pupil premium qualifying score, do they leave those places empty or do they get offered to non pupil premium candidates who have met their qualifying score?
Or is that not an issue anyway because there are always enough pupil premium candidates who have met the pupil premium qualifying score?
Thank you.
Re: The Final Stretch ...
Thank you for the link and the information.I hope everybody's child is successful in the forthcoming exams.It did occur to me for the KE grammars and Bishops Vesey that if a child is unsuccessful and there was to be an appeal one of the grounds to overcome is that the child is of grammar school ability.It could be argued if the child scores over the qualifying score then ( both for a pupil premium child and a non pupil premium child) on this ground alone the child is of grammar school ability.While I would also want much other evidence on this point on any appeal it would be interesting to see how an argument could be countered on this basis.OldTrout wrote:Info on qualifying score here https://www.birminghamgrammarschools.or ... ligibility
They KE state grammars and BV quite clearly say this applies to any candidate.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln
Re: The Final Stretch ...
MSD - I agree and also feel that over time there will be little or no difference between pupil premium and general applicant scores on the KE 11+. Which frankly is BRILLIANT. And well done Birmingham to be addressing this issue - despite major newspapers suggesting grammars are only for the well off quite recently whilst not mentioning Birmingham at all in their report.
Quasimodo - not completely sure what you are referring to regarding appeal and qualifying score. The entrance criteria are published and applies to all. Entry is by rank order for those choosing a particular grammar school and where more than one candidate has the same score it is then decided on distance.
Thinking about it and MSDs point ... in theory pupil premium candidates can fill the number of places for this category (currently set at ~20% of all places) and if generally scoring similarly to general applicants can continue to fill general applicant places if their rank order scores are higher.
I have heard of few mistakes on offer day but this past year one person posted that their child had scored highly (well above the cut-off for the grammar school) but was not given an offer. I believe this was swiftly resolved and generally have the impression the exam marking, reporting of scores and the allocations of places is handled very carefully by the grammar schools in Birmingham.
Actually - sparkly magic ponies aside (apologies for an in-joke from tired parents and ? Moderators posting here last year) - looking back at both 11+ exams/ secondary transfer applications/ offers for both my girls - I am hugely impressed by how well it has all worked and suspect there are a lot of people working very hard behind the scenes to make this happen for our kids....
So Thank you!
Quasimodo - not completely sure what you are referring to regarding appeal and qualifying score. The entrance criteria are published and applies to all. Entry is by rank order for those choosing a particular grammar school and where more than one candidate has the same score it is then decided on distance.
Thinking about it and MSDs point ... in theory pupil premium candidates can fill the number of places for this category (currently set at ~20% of all places) and if generally scoring similarly to general applicants can continue to fill general applicant places if their rank order scores are higher.
I have heard of few mistakes on offer day but this past year one person posted that their child had scored highly (well above the cut-off for the grammar school) but was not given an offer. I believe this was swiftly resolved and generally have the impression the exam marking, reporting of scores and the allocations of places is handled very carefully by the grammar schools in Birmingham.
Actually - sparkly magic ponies aside (apologies for an in-joke from tired parents and ? Moderators posting here last year) - looking back at both 11+ exams/ secondary transfer applications/ offers for both my girls - I am hugely impressed by how well it has all worked and suspect there are a lot of people working very hard behind the scenes to make this happen for our kids....
So Thank you!
Re: The Final Stretch ...
So, am I reading correctly that the DCs don't need to take any pen/pencil/stationery or anything else at all with them? Only the red form?
What will they be provided with by the schools? What if pencil breaks or pen stops working?
What will they be provided with by the schools? What if pencil breaks or pen stops working?
