Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

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Nard
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:41 pm

Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by Nard »

Looking at previous years cut offs it is always the Camp Hill Schools which have the higher cut off scores for entry. What is the opinion on this? Does it show that these two schools are the "best" in terms of the results in GCSE's and A Levels in the Grammar schools in Birmingham? Or is it that entry score has no reflection on how good or not so good the school is. It seems that some DP's look at entry scores to determine how good the school is or are others of the opinion that this has no reflection on the school itself.
kenyancowgirl
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: DO HIGHER CUT OFF SCORES REFLECT HOW GOOD A SCHOOL IS?

Post by kenyancowgirl »

I think it is more about how "popular" the school is, for whatever reason. The more people that opt for it on their CAF, the higher the cut off score is set as they school wants to take the highest scoring candidates it can. The school may be popular with parents because they perceive it as the "best", or because it has the facilities most in line with their childs interests etc. For example, if a school increases its PAN, you would assume the cut off would go down (it has more spaces to fill so goes further down the list) but, if as a result more parents opt for that school because thye think it has more spaces so their child has a better chance of getting a spot, the cut off might go up to reflect the increased popularity.
WISE
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:02 am

Re: DO HIGHER CUT OFF SCORES REFLECT HOW GOOD A SCHOOL IS?

Post by WISE »

In terms of academic quality, All these schools publish their GCSE/Alevel results on their websites, anyone can compare them to see whether the cut off scores reflect the exam results. Broadly speaking, yes!

But for some parents academic performance is not the sole factor for preferring a school, as kenyancowgirl mentioned above.
booellesmum
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by booellesmum »

PAN is an important factor - if a school takes less pupils the cut off will naturally be higher.
Scgsg and BV have historically had lower cut offs than the KE schools, I wonder if more children from South Birmingham do the 11+ than those from North Birmingham. Those children would then prefer KE schools as closer. I only wonder about this as I live in Sutton and our experience is most children do not take the test as there are great comps in Sutton so they are not that bothered about GS.
Petitpois
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by Petitpois »

Don't underestimate the numbers who get good scores but won't or don't send their kids to grammars. If everyone that scored well went for it, the cut off scores would be higher.
helen0209
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Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by helen0209 »

From the maps on the 'Catchment Area' thread, there appear to be more DCs from the south of Birmingham going to a GS than the middle or north. If more people are applying to CH then the entry level score will rise - the whole supply and demand. However, as the demand for a GS place rises other GS cut offs will rise in line. Maybe in a few years there won't be more than 5 points between them all? I think from memory most had an increase in score this year, yet CHB decreased. There will come a point where they can't increase any further.
OldTrout
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Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:21 pm

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by OldTrout »

Hi Nard

My small fry is at CHG and I know that she and several of her friends who had gone to ordinary state primaries were attracted to the idea of a girls school to quite simply get away from noisy, disruptive boys. Small fry spent a lot of her primary time being paired with class clowns (that old ploy of pairing the quiet girl with the disruptive boy) and was fed up with either doing all the work or them ruining work they had started by doing something silly for a laugh from the rest of the class.

Now what I will say is academically for some time Camp Hill boys and girls have done very well on tables for A level and GCSE results - e.g. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/20 ... l-results/.

For us the real difference is expense. Everything is slightly more at a grammar. (I've posted angrily elsewhere because it is wearing us down a bit). Other families who could afford private fees/ have children in private schools have posted in response that they feel it's cheap in comparison - so it can depend on your financial circumstances.

Small fry has only just started at CHG and is our only child in a grammar - so we don't have huge depth of experience. Our eldest daughter, little fish, is in a state non-selective secondary. Little fish's school is only asking £10 for school fund - CHG is asking for £30. Little fish's school provides art supplies - CAmp Hill requires you supply pencils and art book (around £20). Both schools want calculator and maths equipment. Certainly the uniform is much more expensive and less comfortable materials at Camp Hill Girls.

Homework wise as Petitpois has pointed out elsewhere - grammar school has proven to be fabulous (Petitpois's DD is at Handsworth girls and small fry at CHG). Homework is inventive, interesting and if you want to do more there is scope to do so. What that means in practise is that you can spend time really exploring subjects or work you are interested in. So small fry may do the bare minimum on one subject she's not that wild about but might spend well over the recommended 30 minutes a week on another. Part of this is down to the marking system at CHG - which is on a 1 - 10 scale but then goes to 1st, 2nd and 3rd for work well and beyond normal standard. This probably says more about small fry but she's determined to get 'beyond 10' as she puts it in her favourite subjects.

There seems to be real reward for effort and respect for it - which I think would be the case at any grammar school.

My view is there are many many reasons for choosing a school - for some it will be reputation, for me it was also about logistics (small fry needed to be able to travel there and back herself because we are at work) and for others it could be about where friends (adult's children or child's school friends) are going.

What I will say is that secondary is very different from primary and this really is about your child's needs. It will be about there relationship with the school and not really be about you. Yes, you can get involved with friends association, but it is not the same as primary which was very social for parents.

So my advice would be to include your child in this decision because frankly at this level all the schools are excellent - the question really is where do they want to spend the next 5-7 years?

Small fry says people are friendly in her form and she likes the teachers. She says if you are interested and trying hard they have all the time in the world for you.

My main health warning is music instrument lessons at CHG are not with Birmingham music services. They have few instruments to loan and often in school lessons for popular instruments are oversubscribed so kids are waitlisted. We've had to buy small fry her own instrument and go private. 4 kids in her form have given up playing instruments entirely. So if music is important ask questions now - as other grammars clearly are doing more (e.g. Tonythetiger reports instrument and lessons provided for his DD who came to Handsworth girls over the summer off the waitlist). I strongly suspect that Tonythetiger's DD wouldn't have had lessons at all at CHG.
Optimist
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:37 am

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by Optimist »

"Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is"

Yes. CHB for boys and CHG for girls will always be the Platinum Standard. Their students attain a higher proportion of top grades at GCSE, AS and A Levels, versus other local grammar schools. Success breeds success. Top scoring schools will attract higher scoring entrants, better teachers and less attrition of teachers. Attrition of teachers is something that is overlooked by parents when homing in on a target grammar school.

That being said, logistics of travel is a key determinant. The school needs to be easier to commute to/from. But, if you can get the entry grades and live close enough CHB and CHG are the Platinum standard schools. if you look at the other grammar schools, there is a correlation between entry scores and top end results at GCSE, AS and A Levels. Beside the anomalies of a few students gaining top end grades at the other grammars, the results of the remaining students are good but bear no comparison. Just compare CHB and CHG results with other grammars.
crazycrofter
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:10 am

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by crazycrofter »

Surely you could also argue the other way round - the higher exam grades at GCSE are a result of the higher cut offs. CHB are getting the highest scorers in the 11 plus - boys probably in the top 2% ability wise. Of course their exam results will be better!

It's a cycle obviously - the results are better so parents of the highest achievers at 11 plus are more likely to choose CHB. But I don't think you can say the Canp Hill schools are definitively 'better'.

The only people who can really make any judgement in that respect are parents with children at one of the Camp Hill schools and at another grammar. I'd be interested to hear their views on whether the Camp Hill schools actually add something different or better!
kenyancowgirl
Posts: 6738
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: Do higher cut off scores reflect how good a school is?

Post by kenyancowgirl »

The "best" school is ALWAYS the one that is the "best fit" for YOUR child. Irrespective of exam results, facilities, after school clubs, whatever.....

No school is perfect; no school suits every child; the school that is the most perfect fit or the most suited to your child is the best one for them. This is not necessarily the school that has the highest cut off scores - that may be the school that attracts the highest scoring children - possibly because it has less places available, or because it markets itself well as being the best and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If parents think only the high scorers get into a school, they might want to feel that their child is one of the select few who gets the high score to get in. The school might be the best fit for their child but it may not.

When considering a school, try not to get too hung up about what score is required to get in - look at the school and try and see if your son or daughter would find it a best fit - what one person likes and would benefit from may be different from the next person.
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