single paper passes
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Guest
I agree totally - and that was my point about Mike's post - it is insulting to say one format is easier without comparing the height you have to jump to get over the bar!
I think it's worth noting that the bar is set higher in Bucks than it probably is in some areas.
........so how high is this 'bar' and how can you be so sure that bar is so high and how can you compare the height of the bar between schools. I know plenty of pushy parents and clever children who have the option of very few grammar school places. Reading posts in the Surrey section where you appear to have the option of Tiffin, Tiffin or Tiffin for loads of kids, or Mill Hill (partially selective) where approx 1600 sit for 24 places I would have said the bar has to be pretty high there. At the end of the day we all like to believe we have high attaining children who have coped with the hardest exam system in the country.....or that the reason our child didn't make it because they sat the hardest exam system in the country and they would have passed somewhere else. The only way we could be confident about the height of the bar is if an identical 11+ system were in place across the whole country. Unfortunately the system will never ever change as most of the LEAs are non 11+ and do not set the exams and plenty of grammars are not involved in a consortium and set their own exams internally (like private schools often do). So boys and girls it looks like we're stuck with whatever system we have got!!
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Guest
Hi
I disagree, we should be comparing.
Education is a UK Education System.
The fact that Guest55 has failed to accept is that Bucks have the easiest format test and that I have said nothing whatsoever about the test being either easier or more difficult.
The Bucks standardised score is high because of the number of pupils who are tutored to pass the tests and score high marks. THis has previously been confirmed by statements regarding the skewing of the scores in Bucks to the higher mark.
No child should have to score close to or more than 90% to attain a pass mark. This type of scoring in entrance tests bears no resemblance to any other educational testing procedures such as KS2, KS3, GCSE or A levels where substantially lower scores attain the highest qualifications.
The only way to lower the mark is to make the tests more difficult in a manner such as I have (only) suggested, I am sure that there are other variables that could be changed.
For Guest55´s information the Wirral pass mark is around 84%, I am not aware of an 11+ entrance test anywhere in the country that has a pass mark of 60%.
How many people other than Guest55 are insulted by the statement that Bucks have the easiest formatted testing procedure for their 11+ compared to other LEAs, irrespective of the test scores that are required to pass the test.
Why doesn´t Guest55 actually say, "You are wrong Mike because xyz LEA has an easier test format than Bucks." The simple truth is that she can´t.
Regards
Mike
I disagree, we should be comparing.
Education is a UK Education System.
The fact that Guest55 has failed to accept is that Bucks have the easiest format test and that I have said nothing whatsoever about the test being either easier or more difficult.
The Bucks standardised score is high because of the number of pupils who are tutored to pass the tests and score high marks. THis has previously been confirmed by statements regarding the skewing of the scores in Bucks to the higher mark.
No child should have to score close to or more than 90% to attain a pass mark. This type of scoring in entrance tests bears no resemblance to any other educational testing procedures such as KS2, KS3, GCSE or A levels where substantially lower scores attain the highest qualifications.
The only way to lower the mark is to make the tests more difficult in a manner such as I have (only) suggested, I am sure that there are other variables that could be changed.
For Guest55´s information the Wirral pass mark is around 84%, I am not aware of an 11+ entrance test anywhere in the country that has a pass mark of 60%.
How many people other than Guest55 are insulted by the statement that Bucks have the easiest formatted testing procedure for their 11+ compared to other LEAs, irrespective of the test scores that are required to pass the test.
Why doesn´t Guest55 actually say, "You are wrong Mike because xyz LEA has an easier test format than Bucks." The simple truth is that she can´t.
Regards
Mike
Hi Guest55
Go back to first post. The thread is about test formats.
However, I will digress and offer an opinion on over-subscription.
How many grammar schools are there in Bucks? More than 7.
Just because there are seven schools in Bucks with places in year 7 does not indicate that there are over-subscription issues elesewhere in Bucks.
The issues relating to places being available in the seven schools that you have mentioned can be explained in a number of ways.
1. Not enough students pass the Bucks LEA 11+ to be offered a place at the schools.
2. Enough students do pass the test, but do not take up the place. Possibly taking places at independent schools.
3. The student´s family leaves the area.
I am sure there are other reasons that could be added to the list.
Perhaps you could tell me which LEA in the country offers an 11+ place with a 60% pass mark, as you raised that point, or are you not prepared to discuss that either?
Regards
Mike
Go back to first post. The thread is about test formats.
However, I will digress and offer an opinion on over-subscription.
How many grammar schools are there in Bucks? More than 7.
Just because there are seven schools in Bucks with places in year 7 does not indicate that there are over-subscription issues elesewhere in Bucks.
The issues relating to places being available in the seven schools that you have mentioned can be explained in a number of ways.
1. Not enough students pass the Bucks LEA 11+ to be offered a place at the schools.
2. Enough students do pass the test, but do not take up the place. Possibly taking places at independent schools.
3. The student´s family leaves the area.
I am sure there are other reasons that could be added to the list.
Perhaps you could tell me which LEA in the country offers an 11+ place with a 60% pass mark, as you raised that point, or are you not prepared to discuss that either?
Regards
Mike
Hi Guest55
As I am sure you know Kent have 3 tests in Maths, English and Verbal Reasoning.
The Maths score is still above the 60% that you referred to and you have not chosen to refer to the other 2 elements of the Kent test. What are the pass marks required in the English and Verbal Reasoning tests? Substantially higher than 60%, I am sure.
So, where in the UK can you be offered a grammar school place with only 60%? The answer, as you know, is nowhere!!!
If there are over-subscription issues in 6 of the 13 Grammar schools in Buckinghamshire then there are over-subscription issues in Buckinghamshire. Are you saying that there are no over-subscription issues in Bucks at all?
Regards
Mike
As I am sure you know Kent have 3 tests in Maths, English and Verbal Reasoning.
The Maths score is still above the 60% that you referred to and you have not chosen to refer to the other 2 elements of the Kent test. What are the pass marks required in the English and Verbal Reasoning tests? Substantially higher than 60%, I am sure.
So, where in the UK can you be offered a grammar school place with only 60%? The answer, as you know, is nowhere!!!
If there are over-subscription issues in 6 of the 13 Grammar schools in Buckinghamshire then there are over-subscription issues in Buckinghamshire. Are you saying that there are no over-subscription issues in Bucks at all?
Regards
Mike
Posted in Kent section:
"The maximum score in any of the Kent PESE test is 140, but this does not equate to 100%. In January 2005 the score of 140 equated to
VR approx 75%
NVR approx 71%
Maths approx 75%
A minimum selective score of 120 would have equated to :
VR approx 51%
NVR approx 52%
Maths approx 48%"
QED
I am not aware of any over subscription issues this year or last in Bucks Grammars as you do not live in Bucks I doubt you do either.
"The maximum score in any of the Kent PESE test is 140, but this does not equate to 100%. In January 2005 the score of 140 equated to
VR approx 75%
NVR approx 71%
Maths approx 75%
A minimum selective score of 120 would have equated to :
VR approx 51%
NVR approx 52%
Maths approx 48%"
QED
I am not aware of any over subscription issues this year or last in Bucks Grammars as you do not live in Bucks I doubt you do either.
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Mike
Guest55 is right on the point on over-subscription. All children who passed the Bucks 11+ (plus those who appealed successfully) were offered a place at a GS last September. At the end of the process there were still quite a lot of unfilled places at Grammars across the County.
Of the 13 Bucks Grammars, 10 were able to offer places to out of catchment children. In most cases, that means out of County.
One school was offering places up to 18 miles outside catchment (and outside County) in order to fill all it's places, and another school did the same, although I cannot cite the specific distance as the Allocation Profile simply said "All Offered" - but I do know that the distances are again 18 miles+, and a very long way out of County. That school had almost 10% vacant places in Year 7, even after taking every applicant it could.
Bucks Grammars are under-subscribed. There are not enough successful applicants from inside or even outside Bucks to fill all the places. Fact.
Best wishes
Sally-Anne
(Who really isn't unhappy about this situation at all!!
)
Guest55 is right on the point on over-subscription. All children who passed the Bucks 11+ (plus those who appealed successfully) were offered a place at a GS last September. At the end of the process there were still quite a lot of unfilled places at Grammars across the County.
Of the 13 Bucks Grammars, 10 were able to offer places to out of catchment children. In most cases, that means out of County.
One school was offering places up to 18 miles outside catchment (and outside County) in order to fill all it's places, and another school did the same, although I cannot cite the specific distance as the Allocation Profile simply said "All Offered" - but I do know that the distances are again 18 miles+, and a very long way out of County. That school had almost 10% vacant places in Year 7, even after taking every applicant it could.
Bucks Grammars are under-subscribed. There are not enough successful applicants from inside or even outside Bucks to fill all the places. Fact.
Best wishes
Sally-Anne
(Who really isn't unhappy about this situation at all!!
)