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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 625
Hi

Bucks test, two verbal reasoning papers, 80 questions per paper, time limit 50 minutes, covering 21 question types.

I was just wondering whether; four verbal reasoning papers, 85 questions per paper, time limit 50 minutes, covering 15 types of questions, type A being included in one paper, types C and L being included in two papers and type J being included in three papers, would be recommended as good preparation for the Buckinghamshire 11+ test.

Remarkably the answer is consistently, yes!!

Regards

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:33 pm 
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Dear Mike

Assume you are talking about shop bought NFER VR papers. Sadly, as these are the only tests available that mirror the exact format [by that I mean THE LOOK, in particular the answer sheet, which is of great importance, ] then yes we have little choice in using them.

There are some on the market that look very similar, yours from The Tutors included. I use NFER as the last tests coming up to the real thing [ of course remembering to add HIKNOS, amongst others during lesson time.]

Hows Spain and the Olives?

Patricia

PS, you have a PM


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:49 pm 
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Hi

They were written in 1996 and definitely, without a doubt, irrespective of their assertations, do not mirror the real tests in Bucks.

I would use them as a first paper, so that students can complete papers with less types, then move them on to the full question sets.

If they are to be used as final papers, there should be an extension to the general recommendation to cover HIKNOS that should read A C H I L K N O S the additional three types A C and L are surely not covered in enough depth within the four papers.

The pruning and trimming of the trees over the last two years look as though it will "bear fruit" in November, if we don´t get high winds in October. We now have two female pigs called Lavender and Rosemary who we will keep as pets. Driving up the track last week we saw a female wild boar with four piglets. One of our neghbours is hand rearing a little owl. Have just paid our yearly council tax bill, 35 Euros!!!!! Spain is cheap, sunny and tranquil, an excellent place to write.

Regards

Mike


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:47 pm
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Location: Berks,Bucks
HI Mike,

Sorry, a bit off topic..
Do you know whether the 21 types are the standard for ALL the NFER tests, or just a few like Bucks and Wirral?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Dear Mike

Will always disagree on this one. NFER shop bought are the only ones, as my post stated above, that mirror the real test in LOOKS. In particular and most importantly , the ANSWER sheet.

Hence why I would use in order , yours, Bright Sparks then NFER.

My sessions, as described above would include HIKNOS and a selection of others, whilst the child is attempting NFER tests [test completed as homework]

THis way the child progresses closer and closer to the real look. All my children have a 'dip' in marks when changing over from one set of publishers to another. Leaving NFER till last ensures there is NO dip going into the real test.

C and L coming up over two tests is fine. Remember all 21 come up over 2 tests, [ together with a couple of crossovers] so 2 out of 4 is standard. Type J over 3 can be 'seen' as one of the crossovers.

Ideally they could reprint with the 21 types, meanwhile we put up with the next best thing. Do understand your thoughts, however I work as above.

Sounds as though the Spanish life suits you.....I'm Jealous....

Patricia

Will send you a PM later with my thoughts.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:06 am 
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Hi Patricia

I think there is a little confusion over the numebr of question types. As we know there are only 15 question types in the NFER practice papers, the reference to crossover with 21 question types is not therefore relevant.

The A type questions that you have not referred to would have to appear on two papers for a crossover to occur.

It is generally accepted that crossover of types occur within the main 15 type group of questions. The A type questions are a problem if this does not occur.

Normally we would recommend completing test papers in pairs to get full coverage of the question types. However, when analysing paper 1 and 2 and papers 3 and 4 there is not a full set of 15 questions covered. The student would have to complete all four papers to get full question type coverage.

Appreciate comments regarding the answer sheet.

What I don´t understand is; if NFER are moving more towards the 21 question type format why they have not published practice papers to reflect this change.

Regards

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:42 pm 
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Dear Mike

Mike wrote:
Hi Patricia

I think there is a little confusion over the numebr of question types. As we know there are only 15 question types in the NFER practice papers, the reference to crossover with 21 question types is not therefore relevant.


Perhaps I didn't make my self clear, trying to make the point of crossovers on 21 types, therefore crossovers in 15 types.

Mike wrote:
The A type questions that you have not referred to would have to appear on two papers for a crossover to occur.


Yes, I agree that A needs to be seen twice.

Mike wrote:
Normally we would recommend completing test papers in pairs to get full coverage of the question types. However, when analysing paper 1 and 2 and papers 3 and 4 there is not a full set of 15 questions covered. The student would have to complete all four papers to get full question type coverage.


Yes, over 2 papers all 15/21 should be seen, including some crossovers, although each set of 2 should be varied ie not the same questions types in A C E G etc or B D F H etc. The crossovers should also vary per set of 2.

For those who are interested.....On looking through my personal set of NFER, types are as follows.

Type A = Test A [should be in C or D too]
Type B = Test ABCD
Type C = Test B and C [therefore 1 in AB and 1 in CD which is OK]
Type D = Test ABCD
Type E = Test ABCD
Type F = Test ABCD
Type G = Test ABCD
Type J = Test ABCD [not 3 as you thought]
Type L = Test AB [ one of these should be C or D]
Type M = test ABCD
Type P = Test ABCD
Type Q = Test ACD [therefore 1 in AB and 2 in CD ....which is OK]
Type R = Test BCD [therefore 1 in AB and 2 in CD]
Type U = Test ACD [ therefore 1 in AB and 2 in CD]
Type Z = TEST ABCD [as one would expect!]

Therefore over A and B there is a set of 14 questions [A is missing]
Over C and D there is a set of 14 questions [ L is missing]

While these tests are being completed as homework, I would teach HIKNOS with out a doubt, but would also over the period include a selection other types [ invariably ALL types] The good ' thing' is that by the time I administer these tests, the child is well practiced in ALL types, so its just a brushing up....

Mike wrote:
What I don´t understand is; if NFER are moving more towards the 21 question type format why they have not published practice papers to reflect this change.


Agree, as I stated in my post above, prefable to have some new NFER tests on the market, meanwhile we make the best of what we have....

Patricia

Ps, MIke you have mail....


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:49 am
Posts: 450
Mike wrote:
Hi Patricia

What I don´t understand is; if NFER are moving more towards the 21 question type format why they have not published practice papers to reflect this change.

Regards

Mike


I feel like I've come in in the middle of a conversation - I even checked to see that I wasn't on page 2 of this thread! What have I missed about NFER and the '21 question type format'? Please explain!

Thanks

Y


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
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Y,

Yes this is a long-standing 'conversation' between 'old hands' Mike and Patricia who disagree about the order of using various publications to prepare for the Bucks 11+.

All you need to know is that there are 21 types of question in the Bucks 11+ [see the demo VR CD or IPS for explanation] and the NFER papers in the shops only have 15 of those types in them.

Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Posts: 2660
Y wrote:

I feel like I've come in in the middle of a conversation - I even checked to see that I wasn't on page 2 of this thread! What have I missed about NFER and the '21 question type format'? Please explain!

Thanks

Y


Dear Y

More and more areas are using NFER VR 21 types, we are both saying....its about time NFER published tests which include all 21, for all to buy.

Hope this clarifies

Patricia

Dear All

Its not a 2 way conversation, anyone can join in! Mike and I do have minor disagreements occasionally, but generally we are on ths same wavelengh. I have always enjoyed his 'sense of humour'... bring back eddie [at least I think that was his alter ego??]

Just wouldn't do if we all agreed all of the time. As long as the disagreements are conducted in a civil manner, we can all benefit. We can take away what we want from the discussion.


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