Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

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FLG
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:30 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by FLG »

I'm sure tinkus didn't, just the way it came across perhaps. What we have to remember is that it's.us who do this to them, not the test paper creators. We build the pressure and we are prob more anxious results than them, I know that's the case here! We all knew it would be different. The first person I saw cry was a older boy who had been tutored. Not sure what's going to happen but I know I just can't wait, I may burst!! :)
MamaBear
Posts: 574
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:17 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by MamaBear »

I thought Tinkus Pinkus meant those children who didn't have ANY tuition at all, yes it does happen. We all know the test was supposed to be tutor proof and you can't "revise" for it etc. Some parents did just that and sat their children in for the 11 plus.
anotherdad
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:33 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by anotherdad »

Tinkus-Pinkus wrote:The number of questions and the length of time our poor DC's were expected to work for was vicious. Only time will tell the results but I noticed that almost all children were leaving the central location my DD took a test at in tears or looking disconsolate. Only one or two were smiling. The children that I really feel sorry for are the totally untutored ones, the poor children who are at the lower end of the learning spectrum. DD said that there was no way she could have done the exam at all without having been taught speed techniques, NVR techniques, how to do the cloze and jumbled words etc. she reckoned that most of the children in her class would not even have got through a quarter of the questions. I too hope that this does not lead to a super selective county with most children travelling from outside. One thing is for sure. My top of the class in all subjects, predicted level 6 maths child who reads prolifically and is in a top performing school ie. 100% level 5 SATS year on year found the test very hard - not the questions but the time pressure and the length of the tests with such a short break. She was on her knees by the end and apparently messed up the last section as a result. She is only just 10 for gods sake. Why do that to children? I think the People who devised this test should be brought up in front of the court of human rights. There must be a better way to select the brightest children
I think that's sensationalist. FLG hit the nail on the head. It is parents who "do that" to their children, not the people who devised the test. I know that preparation, tutoring and practice are all done with the best intentions by parents with admirable ambitions for their children. However, with that preparation comes the pressure of expectation and the resulting upset we see when, inevitably, many find the test hard or time-pressured. There is no perfect method of testing. However selection is undertaken, there will always be parents who put in time, effort and often money to give their child the best opportunity to prove their ability. That is how the pressure is applied to children, it is not applied by the test itself. The selection process isn't compulsory and nor is coaching and preparation so I'm not sure the Court of Human Rights would be at all interested.
Chill out
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:52 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by Chill out »

Tinkus-Pinkus wrote:The number of questions and the length of time our poor DC's were expected to work for was vicious. Only time will tell the results but I noticed that almost all children were leaving the central location my DD took a test at in tears or looking disconsolate. Only one or two were smiling. The children that I really feel sorry for are the totally untutored ones, the poor children who are at the lower end of the learning spectrum. DD said that there was no way she could have done the exam at all without having been taught speed techniques, NVR techniques, how to do the cloze and jumbled words etc. she reckoned that most of the children in her class would not even have got through a quarter of the questions. I too hope that this does not lead to a super selective county with most children travelling from outside. One thing is for sure. My top of the class in all subjects, predicted level 6 maths child who reads prolifically and is in a top performing school ie. 100% level 5 SATS year on year found the test very hard - not the questions but the time pressure and the length of the tests with such a short break. She was on her knees by the end and apparently messed up the last section as a result. She is only just 10 for gods sake. Why do that to children? I think the People who devised this test should be brought up in front of the court of human rights. There must be a better way to select the brightest children
Please don't feel sorry for my DS. He was not tutored and is most certainly not at the bottom end of the spectrum. We are extremely proud of him, he went in with no expectations and came out smiling. He said it was a lot more difficult than he had expected but did manage to complete it and really enjoyed the challenge. :D
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by mystery »

How long did children have to answer as many as they could of the 203 questions? Was the average time per question very different from other selection tests at age 11 across the country?

It should not be a problem in itself as long as children know that is it very unlikely they can finish it in the time, and that they can pass without oing so, as long as the results are reliable.

If it does fluster too many chikdren during the test itself this would be a problem. Flustered children cannot think straight and so they don't look as able from their test results as they actually are. The test then becomes one where the children who do not fluster easily are more likely to pass than children of equal ability who fluster because they feel they can't do it all.

The instructions in the familiarisation and prep test maybe need to tell children not to expect to be able to do it all perfectly in the time. But isn't this what a lot of parents would have told their children any way?

C e m tested their approach on 1000 bucks year 6 children earlier this year. Presumably they know from this that their tests are at least as valid and reliable as the old bucks one?

I think pinkus meant children who had not prepared, not children whose parents had not paid for a private tutor. But does it really matter what they meant? The essence of the message seems to be that practice working at higher speeds could perhaps be advantageous. But even then, we would be guessing that was the case. Certainly children need to be used to doing work which is either too time pressured or two difficult before an entrance test to reduce the chance of this upsetting them during the test itself.
Tinkus-Pinkus
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by Tinkus-Pinkus »

Just to clarify, yes I did mean children who were not prepared. My DD came out upset because she felt she hadn't managed to answered enough questions not because anything was hard. I had prepared her for the fact that she probably wasn't going to be able to answer all the questions, and she did actually complete some sections. However she is very hard on herself and expects to be able to complete everything so by the end of test 2 was feeling very upset and tired and apparently messed up big time on the last section only answering one question because she was in tears.
Also to clarify , I did not make a decision to put my DD in for the test she asked to be put in for it because she knows older girls that go to a couple of the GS's We have a very good local comp and I was happy for her to go there she goes to school out of county and all her friends are going to local comps, but felt I should support her in her aspirations. i checked with her school that she was suitably academic and they said that if she couldn't pass the 11 plus then no one could ( she goes to a primary school in oxfordshire). She was given some VR practice books by a neighbour and she taught herself all 21 types and then not long before the test I was told that it had changed, so she didn't have much of an opportunity to prepare for the new test. I feel like i let her down because i didn't find out enough up to date information soon enough. I actually assumed it would be a good thing for her as she is a good all rounder, she got level 5's in all her optional Sats last year. I feel very angry on her behalf because regardless of whether she passes or not she deserves to. She is a studious, and very bright top of the class girl and she should not have to put herself though that at such a young age, and i think that To put 10 year olds through 2 solid hours of testing with only a 20 minute break is Too much. I haven't slept or thought of anything else since. I am just trying to devise ways of boosting her self esteem. Because it would be a travesty if this experience puts her off her constant search for knowledge and diligent application to do her best at all times. I am happy for those of you whose, children came out smiling and I sincerely hope that your DC's do well. But I know that the majority of children came out of the central locations very upset. My DD was one of the last ones out and I was watching them all running to their mums and dads, being consoled, and many in tears.
southbucks3
Posts: 3579
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by southbucks3 »

Most children who's parents i have chatted with in South Bucks primary schools in my local area had a pretty rough two hours with this test,. (Lots of talk at the swimming pool Friday eve). Many just grasped the bull by the horns and went for it, but the general feeling is the confidence gained by the pre test made them feel duped when they tackled the real one. I deliberately did not quiz my son, but one of his only comments was how much harder it was than the prep test. Obviously future cem tested children (including those who were sick) will not have that level of shock. Thanfully we have an amazing teacher who put their minds at rest, made all the right noises between papers, and spent the afternoon doing art and design, thus giving her the opportunity to extol praise on children regardless of their academic ability.

None of us have "chosen" to put our children in for this test, some of us choose to take our children out, but it is very rare, and most kids want to spend the day doing what their peers are doing, because of the social connotations.

Obviously most of us gave them a good jiggle over the summer, so their brains did not shrink in the swimming pool (what a lovely sunny summer), but as tinkus said some were not tutored at home or otherwise, and our school practically insisted on this. (Only to be ignored by the majority). I too felt sorry for the less academic children, as I assist with their reading and maths, and know it must have been dispiriting for them to face so many questions they could not hope to answer or complete. Yes they must have been in a similar situation with the old verbal reasoning, but it could be sold as a tricky puzzle book, where answers could be guessed, and they only had to concentrate for 1 test a day.

None of us were around to see our children coming out of the test, smiling, or otherwise, as they were at their school, which is a good thing, as by 3.15pm a whole lifetime had passes in their world, and more important issues like lunchtime food trading had been pursued.

The teachers are going to have to do a great pr job, to stop more parents of less academically achieving children opting out next year, rather than subjecting their children to two hours of stressy and fruitless testing. I have a son in year 5 who's entire life revolves around entomology, but still counts on his fingers, so I will be seriously asking him whether he wants to do the test, or not.

SHould more parents choose to opt out, the standardisation score will of course elevate, as the high acievers become a bigger slice of tbe pie. Our grammar schools already struggle to fill their quota, as the academic bar has been superficially raised by opt in candidates (one assumes you only opt a child into a test that you consider they have a good chance of passing). Could this be an opportunity for the more popular grammars to get selective, pushing the lower level but still pass rated children into the grammars that struggle to fill up, which may be further from their homes? Who knows, only time will tell. I really hope not, as there is nothing better than seekng a group of matching uniformed children, letting off steam together at the local park after school. The big discussion when they were devising the test at our school, is why the grammar schools did not just set a pass mark, as presumably they know the level they require, and there are plenty of spaces for the 30% bucks catchment, within a 12 mile trip, even if some like Challoners are over subscribed. The local chort surely cannot vary in intelligence year on year so much, that they need to peer compare?

Dont even get me started on children who do the test as a "free mock" for the super selectives, I know they are few in number, but grrrrrr. A. The test costs the tax payer to print and mark, B. Yet again, potentially raising the standardisation pass mark, for no reason at all.

Right that is me over and ouf now sorry for the huge moaney post, i may return in October!

Ps

Of course ALL our children have done brilliantly, because they are all brilliant, and we must now enjoy them and try and put October 11th to the back of our minds.
Tinkus-Pinkus
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by Tinkus-Pinkus »

southbucks3 wrote:Most children who's parents i have chatted with in South Bucks primary schools in my local area had a pretty rough two hours with this test,. (Lots of talk at the swimming pool Friday eve). Many just grasped the bull by the horns and went for it, but the general feeling is the confidence gained by the pre test made them feel duped when they tackled the real one. I deliberately did not quiz my son, but one of his only comments was how much harder it was than the prep test. Obviously future cem tested children (including those who were sick) will not have that level of shock. Thanfully we have an amazing teacher who put their minds at rest, made all the right noises between papers, and spent the afternoon doing art and design, thus giving her the opportunity to extol praise on children regardless of their academic ability.

None of us have "chosen" to put our children in for this test, some of us choose to take our children out, but it is very rare, and most kids want to spend the day doing what their peers are doing, because of the social connotations.

Obviously most of us gave them a good jiggle over the summer, so their brains did not shrink in the swimming pool (what a lovely sunny summer), but as tinkus said some were not tutored at home or otherwise, and our school practically insisted on this. (Only to be ignored by the majority). I too felt sorry for the less academic children, as I assist with their reading and maths, and know it must have been dispiriting for them to face so many questions they could not hope to answer or complete. Yes they must have been in a similar situation with the old verbal reasoning, but it could be sold as a tricky puzzle book, where answers could be guessed, and they only had to concentrate for 1 test a day.

None of us were around to see our children coming out of the test, smiling, or otherwise, as they were at their school, which is a good thing, as by 3.15pm a whole lifetime had passes in their world, and more important issues like lunchtime food trading had been pursued.

The teachers are going to have to do a great pr job, to stop more parents of less academically achieving children opting out next year, rather than subjecting their children to two hours of stressy and fruitless testing. I have a son in year 5 who's entire life revolves around entomology, but still counts on his fingers, so I will be seriously asking him whether he wants to do the test, or not.

SHould more parents choose to opt out, the standardisation score will of course elevate, as the high acievers become a bigger slice of tbe pie. Our grammar schools already struggle to fill their quota, as the academic bar has been superficially raised by opt in candidates (one assumes you only opt a child into a test that you consider they have a good chance of passing). Could this be an opportunity for the more popular grammars to get selective, pushing the lower level but still pass rated children into the grammars that struggle to fill up, which may be further from their homes? Who knows, only time will tell. I really hope not, as there is nothing better than seekng a group of matching uniformed children, letting off steam together at the local park after school. The big discussion when they were devising the test at our school, is why the grammar schools did not just set a pass mark, as presumably they know the level they require, and there are plenty of spaces for the 30% bucks catchment, within a 12 mile trip, even if some like Challoners are over subscribed. The local chort surely cannot vary in intelligence year on year so much, that they need to peer compare?

Dont even get me started on children who do the test as a "free mock" for the super selectives, I know they are few in number, but grrrrrr. A. The test costs the tax payer to print and mark, B. Yet again, potentially raising the standardisation pass mark, for no reason at all.

Right that is me over and ouf now sorry for the huge moaney post, i may return in October!

Ps

Of course ALL our children have done brilliantly, because they are all brilliant, and we must now enjoy them and try and put October 11th to the back of our minds.
Thank you SouthBucks3 you mimic my thoughts and feelings and experiences exactly. I too see many children in my job who have their self esteem damaged and have anxiety problems as a result of experiences such as these.
FLG
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:30 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by FLG »

I'm sorry to hear that tinkus, I'm sure your DC will have done better than they thought, it's often the way. I think it must have been hard for the teachers to watch the children who got flustered and not be able to put a stop to it. I am one of the 'you either have it or you dont' thinkers, as was the way when I took mine, that's not saying I think any other approach is wrong, there's nothing wrong with preparing your child, reasonably, each to their own. It will be interesting to hear how they get on with the Slough ones. It's always a learning curve with new tests, just unfortunately it was our DC who have ot this year. I have another who will be taking it maybe in four years and it could be something different again...what fun eh! Good luck to all for results and those taking more x
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Woohoo, it's over!! Sort of

Post by mystery »

If it did cause more than the normal per cent age to feel distraught during the test that is not good.

Was the trial of 1000 similarly scary?

How long did they have to answer 203 questions - was it 90 minutes?
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