Question for Patricia (and others?) about 12+
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Jed
Question for Patricia (and others?) about 12+
Dear Patricia and anyone else with related experience,
I'd like some advice. Our (June-born) daughter got 116 in her 11-plus. I coached her a bit myself and she was achieving 58-68 out of 80 in practices. She didn't really enjoy the tests. At school she prefers creative writing, poetry, drama, etc.
She is weaker in maths (level 4) than English (level 5, top set), BUT her main problem was she never finished any paper (including the actual tests). Always short 5-12 questions on the end but getting most of the others right. I did teach her some strategies for guessing and moving on, but she just didn't work very fast in general, particularly with the maths.
We are now waiting to see on March 1 what school she will be allocated, but are wondering about the 12+. I have seen your posts re coaching in other sections. Is this the type of child that could be coached to speed up and have a go at the 12+, or would it be better to let her sit at the top of a comp. or upper (depending on what school we get). We would be happy with the comp. but not so sure about the upper. Would it be too disruptive to send her for a year and then take her away if she passed? Would she resent having to go through the same test that she disliked so much the first time around?
Not sure what to do for the best.
Jed
I'd like some advice. Our (June-born) daughter got 116 in her 11-plus. I coached her a bit myself and she was achieving 58-68 out of 80 in practices. She didn't really enjoy the tests. At school she prefers creative writing, poetry, drama, etc.
She is weaker in maths (level 4) than English (level 5, top set), BUT her main problem was she never finished any paper (including the actual tests). Always short 5-12 questions on the end but getting most of the others right. I did teach her some strategies for guessing and moving on, but she just didn't work very fast in general, particularly with the maths.
We are now waiting to see on March 1 what school she will be allocated, but are wondering about the 12+. I have seen your posts re coaching in other sections. Is this the type of child that could be coached to speed up and have a go at the 12+, or would it be better to let her sit at the top of a comp. or upper (depending on what school we get). We would be happy with the comp. but not so sure about the upper. Would it be too disruptive to send her for a year and then take her away if she passed? Would she resent having to go through the same test that she disliked so much the first time around?
Not sure what to do for the best.
Jed
I strongly disagree with coaching of any description to get a child through the 11+. Unfortunately the majority of parents are now going down this route and there are an awful lot of children getting a Grammar school place that really aren't suited to the level of education given there. These are the children that struggle at Grammar schools and unfortunately they become increasingly demoralised with the greater expectations demanded of them.
Obviously we all want the best for our children, but tutoring to get them through to Grammar school is doing them no favours whatsoever. You hear of pupils who were previously well-behaved and doing extremely well in school, and suddenly they become disruptive and badly behaved after starting at Grammar school and this is because they are being left behind by their peers. They are quite simply 'out of their depth'.
Perhaps your daughter might be better suited to the way they teach in Upper Schools. The education is geared more towards the 'weakest link' rather than the 'highest achievers'. I had a child who passed the 12+ after being at Upper school for a year and my child never really did settle after moving to Grammar school and found it difficult to join already established groups of friends. It is far more important for your child to be 'happy' at school. You need to think long and hard about 'hot-housing' your daughter to pass this second test. Do you really want to give her all that pressure, with the possibility of 'failing' yet again? Having been there, done that, I would not personally re-try for the late entry again unless the Upper school actually suggested that my child would be better suited to a Grammar school education. There was nothing to gain in the end.
The whole selection system stinks and I can fully understand why you offered her some home tutoring. ALL children should be on an equal footing when it comes to taking the 11+ and unless the selection process is changed, it will always be open to the abuse of the parents that can afford private tuition - and well done to those that get through without it!
Obviously we all want the best for our children, but tutoring to get them through to Grammar school is doing them no favours whatsoever. You hear of pupils who were previously well-behaved and doing extremely well in school, and suddenly they become disruptive and badly behaved after starting at Grammar school and this is because they are being left behind by their peers. They are quite simply 'out of their depth'.
Perhaps your daughter might be better suited to the way they teach in Upper Schools. The education is geared more towards the 'weakest link' rather than the 'highest achievers'. I had a child who passed the 12+ after being at Upper school for a year and my child never really did settle after moving to Grammar school and found it difficult to join already established groups of friends. It is far more important for your child to be 'happy' at school. You need to think long and hard about 'hot-housing' your daughter to pass this second test. Do you really want to give her all that pressure, with the possibility of 'failing' yet again? Having been there, done that, I would not personally re-try for the late entry again unless the Upper school actually suggested that my child would be better suited to a Grammar school education. There was nothing to gain in the end.
The whole selection system stinks and I can fully understand why you offered her some home tutoring. ALL children should be on an equal footing when it comes to taking the 11+ and unless the selection process is changed, it will always be open to the abuse of the parents that can afford private tuition - and well done to those that get through without it!
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Ami
Human nature
Dear "Parent",
Sadly even though every parent can see the virtues of coaching/ over coaching and its consequences, and the long term issues it can lead to for their children I think its short term peer group pressure (i.e. is my child being disadvantaged) and egos that take them down this route. It's human nature. Don't expect any sea change in this.
Ami
Sadly even though every parent can see the virtues of coaching/ over coaching and its consequences, and the long term issues it can lead to for their children I think its short term peer group pressure (i.e. is my child being disadvantaged) and egos that take them down this route. It's human nature. Don't expect any sea change in this.
Ami
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Sara
I seem to remember some quite recent findings that it was in fact the "borderline" passes, the lower achievers who gained most from a grammar school education in terms of boosting their attainments.
I guess, in the end, the decision about whether to ty again would depend on both the ethos of the Grammar school and how well it deals with its less able pupils and the standards of the non-selective school and whether your child is happy and achieving well there. In my area some parents choose to send their children to the very well regarded and high results achieving comprehensive rather than the Grammar Schools even if they pass the 11 plus.
Hope everything works out well for you and your daughter.
Sara
I guess, in the end, the decision about whether to ty again would depend on both the ethos of the Grammar school and how well it deals with its less able pupils and the standards of the non-selective school and whether your child is happy and achieving well there. In my area some parents choose to send their children to the very well regarded and high results achieving comprehensive rather than the Grammar Schools even if they pass the 11 plus.
Hope everything works out well for you and your daughter.
Sara
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Jed
Good to hear from the "parent" as you obviously feel strongly about the subject having gone through the exact scenario I outlined and regretted it. On the other hand I am aware that our daughter is in a group of 20 or so pupils all roughly at the same level and only those coached for the 11 plus actually passed, so it makes me think we OUGHT to be considering it. However my instinct is laissez-faire and I think I'll go with this instinct. I don't think we actually could impose such a burden on her or ourselves. There's more to life and there's plenty of great kids at all the schools.
Dear Jed
If you firmly believe that your daughter should be in a Bucks grammar, go for it. I have taught a number of late transfers and ALL are thriving, ALL have made new friends, All have been accepted by their peer group. [ yes some may have problems....but you know your child]
Disruptive children in grammars, yes they do exist, grammar does not mean good behaviour, some teachers are able to control others are not.
I have never heard of any child, getting through by late transfer/or by being over coached leaving a Bucks grammar because they couldn't cope with the pressure of work, the percentage of GCSE passes for all is 97/97/99 % that is including all those children who have supposedly struggled. they struggled enough to get good passes!
The only children I have heard leaving grammars are teens who just don't want to work and teens coming from the private sector, used to classes of 10, unable to cope with classes of 30
Yes it would be lovely if all children took the 11 plus without tutoring/coaching and we had a level playing field, but that's not going to happen, whether we like it or not.
So , Jed do NOT be put off by what others say, listen to all and make up your own mind, only you know your own child. The maths situation. that's the one subject that all the grammars set for.
What part of the county are you from to be in a position to gain a comprehensive, are you on the BUCKS/BERKS border?
Patricia
If you firmly believe that your daughter should be in a Bucks grammar, go for it. I have taught a number of late transfers and ALL are thriving, ALL have made new friends, All have been accepted by their peer group. [ yes some may have problems....but you know your child]
Disruptive children in grammars, yes they do exist, grammar does not mean good behaviour, some teachers are able to control others are not.
I have never heard of any child, getting through by late transfer/or by being over coached leaving a Bucks grammar because they couldn't cope with the pressure of work, the percentage of GCSE passes for all is 97/97/99 % that is including all those children who have supposedly struggled. they struggled enough to get good passes!
The only children I have heard leaving grammars are teens who just don't want to work and teens coming from the private sector, used to classes of 10, unable to cope with classes of 30
Yes it would be lovely if all children took the 11 plus without tutoring/coaching and we had a level playing field, but that's not going to happen, whether we like it or not.
So , Jed do NOT be put off by what others say, listen to all and make up your own mind, only you know your own child. The maths situation. that's the one subject that all the grammars set for.
What part of the county are you from to be in a position to gain a comprehensive, are you on the BUCKS/BERKS border?
Patricia
Last edited by patricia on Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dear Parent
My main reason for posting on this forum is to help those who cannot afford that private tuition, offering free advice. Its perfectly possible for parents to coach their own children, as long as they get the right advice, when I first started posting I found, to my horror, totally incorrect information being offered to parents.
I know it would be fantastic if no one tutored/coached, but that is not going to happen, if it did I'd become a maths tutor instead!
Patricia
My main reason for posting on this forum is to help those who cannot afford that private tuition, offering free advice. Its perfectly possible for parents to coach their own children, as long as they get the right advice, when I first started posting I found, to my horror, totally incorrect information being offered to parents.
I know it would be fantastic if no one tutored/coached, but that is not going to happen, if it did I'd become a maths tutor instead!
Patricia
Dear Parent,
Unfortunately the idea that any child can pass the 11+ exam without some form of coaching, either during their school time ie. the 5 sessions that Bucks allow, or privately, is delusionary. These tests are in my opinion all about technique. A very able child such as my own son, due to take in oct this year would stand no chance of passing without tuition of some sort teaching the techniques. Equally a less able child with lots of tuition may well get through. This really illustrates the dilemma and is in some way an indictment of the 11+ system, however thats another discussion. Unfortunately its what we've got here in Bucks, so as a parent we deal with it in the way we think best. Certainly choices are there, but I stand by my first point and would argue, No tuition=No Grammar, irrespective of ability.
Unfortunately the idea that any child can pass the 11+ exam without some form of coaching, either during their school time ie. the 5 sessions that Bucks allow, or privately, is delusionary. These tests are in my opinion all about technique. A very able child such as my own son, due to take in oct this year would stand no chance of passing without tuition of some sort teaching the techniques. Equally a less able child with lots of tuition may well get through. This really illustrates the dilemma and is in some way an indictment of the 11+ system, however thats another discussion. Unfortunately its what we've got here in Bucks, so as a parent we deal with it in the way we think best. Certainly choices are there, but I stand by my first point and would argue, No tuition=No Grammar, irrespective of ability.
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Jed
Don't be too hard on the "parent". He/she has actually been through the experience of putting his/her child into a grammar at 12 and it obviously wasn't a happy experience. It's good to know others have had better experiences.
Patricia: re Comp, it's Bucks/Oxon border
I'm like a reed in the wind - blowing back and forth! We'll see what March 1 brings.
Jed
Patricia: re Comp, it's Bucks/Oxon border
I'm like a reed in the wind - blowing back and forth! We'll see what March 1 brings.
Jed
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Mel1
Tuition
Hi Patricia
I have renamed myself Mel1 as you did say there is another Mel from Bucks on the forum.
I just wanted to say how good it is that you continue to offer your advice on this forum and that you Stand by what you believe with regards to the over coaching thing.
I think as parents we sometimes forget why we put our children in for the test in the first place. Wasn't it because we feel they are bright and enjoy learning and would benefit in a Grammar school. I realise that there is a small percentage who just put the kids up for the test because it is offered and because the other kids are doing it (I knwo some who did at our school) but you can bet your bottom dollar they are not on here everyday looking for advice, seeking guidence etc because they know what their child is like and how well they have or haven't done at school to date. Nor are they tutoring or indeed paying for tutoring because they know the child will not pass which is right. I too believe you cannot just pass without tuition. I actually beleive also that the tests are set so as you must have tuition because surely the fact that a child will do the extra work and that the parents will support them is a testiment to the commitment both will give when getting into the Grammar school. I for one do not think it is a case of them getting into Grammar school and then thats it. I am sure we will always haveto give them help of sorts and continue to encourage. So maybe the 11+ is just the beginning?
I coached my son and he passed and I am delighted. He did the test because of how well he has always done at school. he got 3's in his year 2 SATS, he has always been in top sets but above all he enjoys school, takes it seriously and wants to learn. I have never felt he was 'Gifted' but am in agreement with Patricia, there are only a few of those children around. I am sure that even if my son is not as bright as some of the children he will be at Grammar school with, he will benefit because he will want to. Irrespective of ability if a child does not want to learn then he/she will not.
The trouble is I think that when the children sit these tests, if they dont pass or even if they do but by only just gett the pass mark we start to rethink as to whether they are 'bright' afterall and thats madness.
So orriginal poster ref: 12+go for it let your daughter have another go but be under no false illusion, make sure you give her EXTRA coaching.
Good luck
Mel
I guess what I am trying to say is if the person considering the 12+ really beleived their child should be in the Grammar school system before then what has changed now.
I have renamed myself Mel1 as you did say there is another Mel from Bucks on the forum.
I just wanted to say how good it is that you continue to offer your advice on this forum and that you Stand by what you believe with regards to the over coaching thing.
I think as parents we sometimes forget why we put our children in for the test in the first place. Wasn't it because we feel they are bright and enjoy learning and would benefit in a Grammar school. I realise that there is a small percentage who just put the kids up for the test because it is offered and because the other kids are doing it (I knwo some who did at our school) but you can bet your bottom dollar they are not on here everyday looking for advice, seeking guidence etc because they know what their child is like and how well they have or haven't done at school to date. Nor are they tutoring or indeed paying for tutoring because they know the child will not pass which is right. I too believe you cannot just pass without tuition. I actually beleive also that the tests are set so as you must have tuition because surely the fact that a child will do the extra work and that the parents will support them is a testiment to the commitment both will give when getting into the Grammar school. I for one do not think it is a case of them getting into Grammar school and then thats it. I am sure we will always haveto give them help of sorts and continue to encourage. So maybe the 11+ is just the beginning?
I coached my son and he passed and I am delighted. He did the test because of how well he has always done at school. he got 3's in his year 2 SATS, he has always been in top sets but above all he enjoys school, takes it seriously and wants to learn. I have never felt he was 'Gifted' but am in agreement with Patricia, there are only a few of those children around. I am sure that even if my son is not as bright as some of the children he will be at Grammar school with, he will benefit because he will want to. Irrespective of ability if a child does not want to learn then he/she will not.
The trouble is I think that when the children sit these tests, if they dont pass or even if they do but by only just gett the pass mark we start to rethink as to whether they are 'bright' afterall and thats madness.
So orriginal poster ref: 12+go for it let your daughter have another go but be under no false illusion, make sure you give her EXTRA coaching.
Good luck
Mel
I guess what I am trying to say is if the person considering the 12+ really beleived their child should be in the Grammar school system before then what has changed now.
