Select Committee Meeting 19th November

[drummer]

Drummer - your confidence in private schools is interesting, but misplaced, imho.

I can't think of one top student who has come from a local private school in all the years I've been teaching. In fact they usually bump along at the bottom of the year group ...

Apologies if I wasn't very clear but I think you have misunderstood my point which was to note that, according to the figures supplied to me by this mum, the private school results were NOT as high as one might expect and that that the cohorts at many of our higher achieving state primaries do as well if not better .

[drummer]

Until there is a big push to inform and encourage, complacency and naivety regarding how much other parents 'encourage' their children to try and secure a gs place will certainly continue to play a part in the disparity between primary results.

This is an important point borne out by much study i.e. that differences in achievement correlate highly (amongst other things of course) with differences in parental (and community) attitudes, experience, knowledge, education, aspiration etc.

That such limiting effects (in terms of academic educational outcomes)*tend* at least to some extent to correlate with relative social deprivation is something that amplifies other disadvantages.

[Stroller]

Until there is a big push to inform and encourage, complacency and naivety regarding how much other parents 'encourage' their children to try and secure a gs place will certainly continue to play a part in the disparity between primary results.

This is an important point borne out by much study i.e. that differences in achievement correlate highly (amongst other things of course) with differences in parental (and community) attitudes, experience, knowledge, education, aspiration etc.

That such limiting effects (in terms of academic educational outcomes)*tend* at least to some extent correlate with relative social deprivation is something that amplifies other disadvantages.

Well put, both of you. I agree and I also think there are easy steps that would make some of it more addressable. It would be interesting to run talks for parents at the end of year 4. Explain what is coming up. Explain what it takes. Explain how to help.

Arguably there should be similar practical talks far earlier for disadvantaged areas. And shame on any school that doesn't help parents to understand free and effective ways to help and occupy their kids. Join the library. Use book lists, etc. Listen to stories on CD and podcast. Bring tots to free story time sessions.

A nice quote applies: "You can't be what you can't see." Provide role models from the local community or similar and explain how it happened and why school matters (grammar or not). Impact on earnings, etc.

[southbucks3]

the private school results were NOT as high as one might expect and that that the cohorts at many of our higher achieving state primaries do as well if not better

.

Let's not get carried away, approximately ten state primaries achieved a 40% pass rate or higher in the first year of cem, not really many, more like a few.

No matter how we interpret the results the preps are doing a whole lot better than the state at passing the 11+ particularly if they are focussed on getting the children into state gs, not indie secondary schools or to continue in their own school until year 8/9.

There is a well known and very popular shift to prep schools in year four, one parent even had the cheek to transfer their child back to state primary for year six after their son had passed the 11+ obviously when it doesn't work those same parents normally continue in the independent sector pretending that was the plan all along! The two favourites in my area achieved 70% and 60% last year, with the 60% winning three more gs places on review. From the seven children that transferred from our state primary to indie after year three, only one is now not attending grammar school.
Obviously it helped that their parents had set the 'grammar school or bust' plan very much in action.

Just amusing myself, I wonder what the pass rate is for second or more generation locals, children of parents who went to school in the area? There were two out of nine passes from my middle sons year and eight out of twelve non passes that were children of long term locals. I wonder if this pattern can be found elsewhere, Aylesbury vale residents are far more likely to be long term locals than chiltern district. Just a thought, no facts of course.

[drummer]

the private school results were NOT as high as one might expect and that that the cohorts at many of our higher achieving state primaries do as well if not better

.

Let's not get carried away, approximately ten state primaries achieved a 40% pass rate or higher in the first year of cem, not really many, more like a few.

To be fair southbucks3, I didn't say 'many of our state primary schools' I said "many of our *higher achieving* state primaries". You are quite right to note that the majority of schools perform less well.

[Sally-Anne]

I have made further edits to my earlier post to include a larger maximum cohort at the Beacon and Gayhurst, based on information provided by a forum member.

Code: Select all

Akeley Wood Lower School	40
Ashfold School Trust Ltd	36
Beachborough School    40
The Beacon School	80 (Was 60)
Chesham Preparatory School	60
Crown House School	25
Davenies School	40
Gateway School	40
Gayhurst School	60 (Was 40)
Godstowe School	40
Griffin House School	20
Heatherton House School	20
High March School	30
Maltman's Green School	50
Pipers Corner School	20
St Mary's School (Gerrards Cross)	20
St Teresa's Catholic Independent School	15
Swanbourne House   40
Thorpe House School	20

The sum of those, if every school is full in Y6, gives a total Partner cohort of 716. (Was 571.) The figures quoted each year are, of course, for the tested cohort, which is a completely different number.

So, for 2014 admission, we get the following:

Tested cohort: 438
Qualified: 307
%ge: 70.1%

Total cohort: 716 (Was 571)
Qualified: 307
%ge: 42.9% (Was 53.8%)

39% of the cohort opted out of the 11+. (Was 23%)

Taking out 10% of the total cohort to allow for vacant places, the qualification rate is 48% (Was 60%.)

[Dollydripmat]

Great post Sbb3! In my area, there is a lot more talk amongst the parents of the possibility of sending them to prep at Y3, to give them more of a chance since CEM has been introduced. As I said previously the old GL test allegedly allowed many not suitable for GS to pass and the new test seems to alienate some very bright children more than capable of attending a GS . As a result many more Parents are going through review /appeals which are just exhausting emotionally. Part of me wishes and doesn't that we had sent ours to a prep at Y3, we didn't as I did think we didn't need to, and I do have a big issue with state education for state children. (Apologies if I offended anyone but it's just my opinion ) dolly x

[jabba7]

There are two state primaries close to where I live. You could walk from one to the other in 10 minutes. One had a pass rate this year of 38% the other had a pass rate of 7%.

In my opinion and it is only an opinion the difference is the culture. The parents in one school nearly all paid for tutoring for their child and you would feel you were not giving your child a fair chance if you didn't do this.

The parents in the other school didn't use private tutors, it was a culture that was frowned upon as if the other parents at the other school were overly pushy.

It's a small sample I know but I think the test is tricky and unless you have a parent who has the time and skills to train their children or to pay someone else to do it the test will not select the naturally bright. The time pressure makes this impossible as with such time pressure the training becomes even more important. I think there are issues with the test and it does not do what it should do.

[Dollydripmat]

Jabba7 I think the schools you mentioned may be close to me . They have similar results. If it is , it's a culture thing, it is almost frowned upon to tutor the children, however these are long standing bucks people where even some attended the primary school. It is often said that back in day no tutoring was necessary and they still believe this is the case. Even when I have explained many outside factors "tourists" and anyone that wants to pass tutors, falls on deaf ears, still believing little johnny will pass on his own merit. Many do feel the uppers are fine and as they attended them it's also fine for their children. I'm still yet to find a child who wasn't tutored (some form) who passed ! I think that says it all. Dolly x

[heartmum]

In Bucks, unless you are fortunate enough to attend a 'high achieving state primary school' then with the new test it will be even MORE necessary for parents to have some form of tutoring ...

Most able children in the old 11+ test with around just nine months of extra work had a good chance of qualification (plus easy to purchase over-the-counter tests helped those on a lower income to help/assist their child). The levels that CEM has set these tests at (still have issues with the claim the test covers areas/levels within Y5 curriculum - with DCs school this was definitely not the case) parents will be starting tutoring, not nine months before, but two years before the test to ensure their DCs are at the correct level. A benefit to primary schools/children whose results will be greatly enhanced by this extra work but the socially disadvantaged will be losing out, who are not able to afford these expensive tutors, not at a high-level primary school and are not able or lack confidence in their own academic ability to do additional work with their DC ... unless they know of a great website/forum

I have concerns that the new test will create more socially elite grammar schools, that bright and able children from socially disadvantaged backgrounds will lose out and eventually (a few years down the line) rather than the top 30% of children being given the opportunity for this type of education it will become, as in other areas, just the top 5%. A re-think needs to be done now .. although for some it'll be too late