Secondary allocations
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Guest
The numbers for each school are fairly even - around 600 - 700 - but that includes 1st, 2nd and 3rd choices. I don't know why Southend requires a lesser score but I agree with Essex Girl that it is a nice school and the friendly feeling is lovely (it felt friendlier than Westcliff when we looked around). The look of the school didn't actually influence us - modern or old - we just really like the "feel" of County High. Southend was third on our list purely because it is that much further but I would have been happy with Westcliff or Southend if she hadn't made Chelmsford.Boo wrote:Thanks Guest, glad you agree. do you know how many applied to each of the girls grammars? and why do you think southend requires a lesser score. I have to admit it is a very long way out so maybe that influences the choice. Glad you don't have to go through all that again, I have a second child but I don't feel a this point that a grammar would be right and the proposed changes mean that the criteria for all schools will be different again so the process could become even more complex.
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Essex Girl
alocations
Hi Boo and all,
I have done a little more research and found that although the pass rate for GCSE at Bromfords was 72% overall, that the pass rate for maths and English was 35%. It is therefore possible that this school is doing what a lot of other schools are to improve their position in the league tables and putting more pupils in for NQVS, etc, which are worth up to four GCSE grades A-C, thus distorting the pass rate somewhat.
If you look at the BBC education website and click into league tables, follow the prompts and you can see the percentage of pupils passing 5 A-C in total and this is followed by the A-C pass rate for maths and English. In quite a lot of schools this makes a huge difference, Bromfords being one such example.
Without studying their prospectus, etc, I cant say whether the rate of pupils entered for "other" exams is higher than at Mayflower or Billericay, but I would suggest that it is and the pass rate for maths and English at Mayflower and Billericay, whilst not being fantastic, is perfectly reasonable.
On the question of those children who were allocated to schools in Basildon, I don't yet have any news and am unlikely speak to the right people to find out from for several weeks. However, I can tell you that at least the two I know of were in Mayflower catchment. The Mayflower rule being, siblings of pupils already attending the school, followed by children living in the catchment area as defined, etc, etc. There were too many siblings for all the children in the second catagory to be offered places. None of this is helped by the considerable amount of building work going on in the area, most of which is family housing.
When we took our youngest daughter to visit Mayflower in Autumn 2004 Mrs Bamford, the Head Teacher, did say that there was room at one or other of the Billericay schools for all the children in Billericay (if they all those to apply) and a few but not all outside applicants. If I remember rightly, this was the first year that the sibling rule was applied at Mayflower and a friend tells me that when she took her daughter there in Autumn last year, Mrs Bamford did not say this at all. I guess the experience they had had with sibling applications the previous year had made them realise that there were many more than they expected.
Traditionally, both Mayflower and Billericay have lost year 7 pupils to selective and semi-selective schools, such as the grammars of Chelmsford, Southend and Westcliff, the Anglo European, The Ursuline, St. Martins, etc, etc. This has led to a situation where children from outside the catchment area have been able to obtain places at the school/s. Therefore, with the sibling rule now in effect, many of those outside catchment children have sisters or brothers who wish to attend the school. In my view, this is rightly so because the parents of these children, whether they come from Basildon, Wickford or wherever else, have chosen Mayflower, in most cases, as their first choice, whereas a lot of parents from within the catchment area have abandoned the local school for others listed above. I am guilty of this. None of our children attend the local school and if we had another child to go through secondary allocation, then I would not be able to expect a place automatically at the local school. That, sadly, is the price we have to pay for wanting what we see as the best for our children.
I will let you know as soon as there is any news of movement regarding the in catchment but non-allocated children.
I have done a little more research and found that although the pass rate for GCSE at Bromfords was 72% overall, that the pass rate for maths and English was 35%. It is therefore possible that this school is doing what a lot of other schools are to improve their position in the league tables and putting more pupils in for NQVS, etc, which are worth up to four GCSE grades A-C, thus distorting the pass rate somewhat.
If you look at the BBC education website and click into league tables, follow the prompts and you can see the percentage of pupils passing 5 A-C in total and this is followed by the A-C pass rate for maths and English. In quite a lot of schools this makes a huge difference, Bromfords being one such example.
Without studying their prospectus, etc, I cant say whether the rate of pupils entered for "other" exams is higher than at Mayflower or Billericay, but I would suggest that it is and the pass rate for maths and English at Mayflower and Billericay, whilst not being fantastic, is perfectly reasonable.
On the question of those children who were allocated to schools in Basildon, I don't yet have any news and am unlikely speak to the right people to find out from for several weeks. However, I can tell you that at least the two I know of were in Mayflower catchment. The Mayflower rule being, siblings of pupils already attending the school, followed by children living in the catchment area as defined, etc, etc. There were too many siblings for all the children in the second catagory to be offered places. None of this is helped by the considerable amount of building work going on in the area, most of which is family housing.
When we took our youngest daughter to visit Mayflower in Autumn 2004 Mrs Bamford, the Head Teacher, did say that there was room at one or other of the Billericay schools for all the children in Billericay (if they all those to apply) and a few but not all outside applicants. If I remember rightly, this was the first year that the sibling rule was applied at Mayflower and a friend tells me that when she took her daughter there in Autumn last year, Mrs Bamford did not say this at all. I guess the experience they had had with sibling applications the previous year had made them realise that there were many more than they expected.
Traditionally, both Mayflower and Billericay have lost year 7 pupils to selective and semi-selective schools, such as the grammars of Chelmsford, Southend and Westcliff, the Anglo European, The Ursuline, St. Martins, etc, etc. This has led to a situation where children from outside the catchment area have been able to obtain places at the school/s. Therefore, with the sibling rule now in effect, many of those outside catchment children have sisters or brothers who wish to attend the school. In my view, this is rightly so because the parents of these children, whether they come from Basildon, Wickford or wherever else, have chosen Mayflower, in most cases, as their first choice, whereas a lot of parents from within the catchment area have abandoned the local school for others listed above. I am guilty of this. None of our children attend the local school and if we had another child to go through secondary allocation, then I would not be able to expect a place automatically at the local school. That, sadly, is the price we have to pay for wanting what we see as the best for our children.
I will let you know as soon as there is any news of movement regarding the in catchment but non-allocated children.
Thanks essex girl, you are great with your information. When we went see Mayflower last autumn the head told us that we should put Mayflower down if we were in the priorty admissions area, no mention of siblings at this point that's why I was surprised that you may not get a place. Good point about the GSCE results, had heard something about this in the press and whilst I agree that for some children vocational courses provide skills that prepare them for work and this is a good thing it does mean that you have to look a little deeper if you are more interested in the academic results. Will do some research. even more confused that ever I just don't want to put all eggs in one basket and it seems that the new rules have made it harder for people to hedge their bets (Which all parents that want what they perceive to be the best have always done). It seems that there aren't enough good schools in the local comminity for all those that would like a place. It may be that there is capacity in Essex to take more pupils and that is why the house building with few new schools goes on, I mean does the coucil relly care whether parents get their 1st chioce or not?Ideally all schools should offer the same high standrd of teaching but we know this is not the case (and so do they council). Interested to learn that in London admissions are done by banding, that is they test all children and take a proprtion from each band to ensure a mix of a abilities. I guess this works better in a high density area as more schools are closer together so the travel times will not be excessive. We've got lots of time to mull things over and to try to estimate her realistic chances of getting a grammar place, how you do this I'm not sure, any tips gratefully received.
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Essex Girl
Allocations
Hi Boo,
It is impossible to know for sure whether your child is going to make a grammar because, unfortunately, it does not just depend on how bright they are, it also depends on how well they are prepared in comparison with others, how nervous, etc, they are on the day and how well the questions suit their individual abilities.
I will always remember that when my eldest child got a grammar school place there was a pupil in that school year group who was incredibly bright. They had even been known to correct the teacher's spelling, etc.
On the Monday after the results came out my child came and told me that X had not passed. I was absolutely stunned. In the case of this particular child, I think that because they were so bright, the parents had deemed it unnecessary to put in any preparation and of course they had therefore probably not seen verbal reasoning before. In the event, that particular child reapplied when a place because available at a grammar and they got in. Suffice it to say that when the end of year exams took place the child had only been studying Latin for a couple of months compared to others in the class who had been studying it for a year and the child came almost at the top of the class. I say this just to show how high the ability of a non-passee can be.
One important thing to remember is that if, at the end of the day, your child does end up allocated to a school that you are not happy with, then places at better schools do come up because people move house, etc, etc.
I think I have said this before but as a parent with children in both grammar and comp schools I would say that the comp is definitely more encouraging whilst the grammar just seems to have high expectations, it is kind of like grammars depend on nature whereas comps depend on nurture.
It is impossible to know for sure whether your child is going to make a grammar because, unfortunately, it does not just depend on how bright they are, it also depends on how well they are prepared in comparison with others, how nervous, etc, they are on the day and how well the questions suit their individual abilities.
I will always remember that when my eldest child got a grammar school place there was a pupil in that school year group who was incredibly bright. They had even been known to correct the teacher's spelling, etc.
On the Monday after the results came out my child came and told me that X had not passed. I was absolutely stunned. In the case of this particular child, I think that because they were so bright, the parents had deemed it unnecessary to put in any preparation and of course they had therefore probably not seen verbal reasoning before. In the event, that particular child reapplied when a place because available at a grammar and they got in. Suffice it to say that when the end of year exams took place the child had only been studying Latin for a couple of months compared to others in the class who had been studying it for a year and the child came almost at the top of the class. I say this just to show how high the ability of a non-passee can be.
One important thing to remember is that if, at the end of the day, your child does end up allocated to a school that you are not happy with, then places at better schools do come up because people move house, etc, etc.
I think I have said this before but as a parent with children in both grammar and comp schools I would say that the comp is definitely more encouraging whilst the grammar just seems to have high expectations, it is kind of like grammars depend on nature whereas comps depend on nurture.
Hi Essex Girl
Glad you find the comp encouraging, I suspect it is a good school with a good learning ethic with most children wanting to learn. What worries me is being given a place in a school where the kids don't want to learn and the good teachers becoming demoralised, after all if the teachers don't see results due to lack of the kids desire to learn it must get them down, probably why those poor schools have a high staff turnover with staff seeking employement in schools where kids want to learn or leaving teaching altogether. If you are teaching those kids who don't want to be taught where's the job satisfaction it that?
Glad you find the comp encouraging, I suspect it is a good school with a good learning ethic with most children wanting to learn. What worries me is being given a place in a school where the kids don't want to learn and the good teachers becoming demoralised, after all if the teachers don't see results due to lack of the kids desire to learn it must get them down, probably why those poor schools have a high staff turnover with staff seeking employement in schools where kids want to learn or leaving teaching altogether. If you are teaching those kids who don't want to be taught where's the job satisfaction it that?
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Essex Girl
allocations
Hi Boo,
Yes, we are lucky. Our comp is one of the best in Essex. You are right, of course, about staff morale.
I find it somewhat disturbing that you are just within catchment for Mayflower and can't be guaranteed a place. That is ridiculous isn't it? How are you supposed to make choices when your catchment school cannot be guaranteed to take your child. If I were you, I would have a chat with your child's teacher/s and/or head and see if they are sympathetic and what they would suggest. Also, it may be worth having a chat with the Essex Education Authority to see what they suggest and, if noone can give you the information that you are looking for then speak to your MP. Where did all the children in your child's school year 6 get places this year?
Yes, we are lucky. Our comp is one of the best in Essex. You are right, of course, about staff morale.
I find it somewhat disturbing that you are just within catchment for Mayflower and can't be guaranteed a place. That is ridiculous isn't it? How are you supposed to make choices when your catchment school cannot be guaranteed to take your child. If I were you, I would have a chat with your child's teacher/s and/or head and see if they are sympathetic and what they would suggest. Also, it may be worth having a chat with the Essex Education Authority to see what they suggest and, if noone can give you the information that you are looking for then speak to your MP. Where did all the children in your child's school year 6 get places this year?
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Guest99
I alos took my daughter to the open evening at Mayflower ( which is the school that her primary feeds into) and the headmistress did say that there were no guaranteed places- even if you lived across the road. Didnt matter in the end to us as she hated it on sight, didnt get into CCHSG so is now going to the Billericay School ( where she does have a sibling)
Hi Essex Girl & Guest99
Crazy situation, spoke to the staff of the primary and they agree it is nonsense, they also suspect the change of the rules to admit siblings first was as a result of a highly influencial politcal figure (who they did not say). Not sure who is going where although I did hear it was a good year for grammar places and most are going to Mayflower. Did speak to admissions again and they said we will have to wait until september to check the admissions criteria as some may change (how they don't know). I did hear that these changes have to be agred by April, not sure if they're in the public domain then but it's worth a try. Also, spoke to a friend who got Coopers in Upminster but had to submit evidence of long term club commitment, such as brownies, music etc as well as her child answering faith related questions (selection by any other name). In the end she couldn't persuade her daughter to leave her independent school so it goes to show places do then become available. Guest99 what was it your daughter hated about Mayflower?
Crazy situation, spoke to the staff of the primary and they agree it is nonsense, they also suspect the change of the rules to admit siblings first was as a result of a highly influencial politcal figure (who they did not say). Not sure who is going where although I did hear it was a good year for grammar places and most are going to Mayflower. Did speak to admissions again and they said we will have to wait until september to check the admissions criteria as some may change (how they don't know). I did hear that these changes have to be agred by April, not sure if they're in the public domain then but it's worth a try. Also, spoke to a friend who got Coopers in Upminster but had to submit evidence of long term club commitment, such as brownies, music etc as well as her child answering faith related questions (selection by any other name). In the end she couldn't persuade her daughter to leave her independent school so it goes to show places do then become available. Guest99 what was it your daughter hated about Mayflower?
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Bill Mum
Hi Boo, I'm a Billericay mum. I put down Mayflower as last choice. Children I know are going there and some are the first child and live 2.5 miles so some get in.Boo wrote:Thanks for your advice guest, I have found this forum really useful. We didn't visit Chelmsford last year but will do this year, I'm amazed there are parents from so far afield - do you think they then move? Have you seen the posts about secondary allocations and the changes to the admission criteria ie siblings first? Thought we had Mayflower as a dead cert. if she didn't get a grammar but it seems that this may not be the case depending on numbers applying even though we are in the priorty admissions area. How confident were you about being allocated your choices? Other than the 11+ pass could you meet any of the other criteria for other schools?
Remember, peoples choices of school will be varied. My daughter and myself did not like Mayflower, we just did not like the building and thought it was basically run down. We were somewhat surprised, as the outside of the buildings look quite bright. You also could hardly see the carpets for the chewing gum, so either there is no respect for property or no discipline.
I understand that last year they had a new building built and lift, maybe things have improved.
You could say the building should not matter, but additionally the sets were only in Maths and PE. The prospectus given out by the school also did not give their performances, which we had to separately request.
We also have a different opinion to others on Southend and Westcliff. We loved Westcliff and thought Southend was ok. The results were also better at Westcliff when they did KS3. Westcliff set children in Maths and French, Southend do only extra maths each week for brighter children.
Chelmsford County High building is very old, but well looked after. The teachers seem very keen and interested in the children. They say if you like sport or music, they like it too. At the end of the day, the results speak for themself.
These decisions are difficult, you only know what it is like once you are there. The primary school my daughter currently goes to hasn't been much cop! You look at their results, but don't realise that the high results are due to extra coaching for 11 plus paid for by parents. Once a bright child has reached the level 5, you have to push the school to provided more interesting lessons or they don't do anything and your child is bored and turns off.
Good luck for the future.
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Essex Girl
More thoughts on schools
You are absolutely right that it is down to a personal choice. The Billericay primaries (and I'm not picking on them in particular, but know them best) do have a large number of tutored pupils, not just for the 11+ but all round, SATs and all. The results achieved at the end of year 6 have a lot to do with this. Not that I'm putting down the teaching but I just know for a fact that a huge amount of tutoring goes on and it is not just the children who struggle, it is the ones who are more able (in fact, I would say that it is mostly the more able).
Mayflower has had a lot of building work done over the past few years so I am surprised that you found it as unfavourable inside as you did. But, as you rightly say, everybody will have different opinions.
I have to be honest and say that the comp one of our children goes to in Essex is far more run down on the inside than Mayflower but achieves consderably better results, so it does not necessarily tally.
Southend, as I have said before, is excellent. The whole ethos is first class. They respect the children for who they are and do not bottle them up and try to make them into different people than they are set to become.
Results are really very important but look at the whole picture. Chelmsford has no excuse for not producing chart busting results. It has pupils which come at the very top of the 11+ pass list and any other results would just not be acceptable.
Both Southend and Westcliff take more of a variety of children, still bright but not quite at the level of Chelmsford (although, of course if you live nearer Southend you are likely to put one of them down as a first choice and some poeple prefer them to Chelmsford anyway). However, their results are also excellent, and to me this says a lot about the teaching.
I cant speak much about Westcliff but Southend is thoroughly recommended. I am sure that Chelmsford is excellent too but most of the children I know who have gone there have either loved it or loathed it and the gifted daughter of a friend of mine hated it because she felt that they smothered her and would not let her make her own decisions about her life. She also said that life there was "like being on a boat. Every now and then someone fell overboard and their friends had to man the lifeboat.". The stress can really get to some pupils.
Choices are what life is about. Incidentally, up to the time of writing, they have never done half GCSEs at Southend or Chelmsford, where they offer several of these at Westcliff. It follows, I think, and this is purely an example, that where a pupil may take 10 full GCSEs and gain 10 B grades, a pupil at Westcliff could gain 11 and gain 11 B grades, thus pushing the school further up the league tables.
Mayflower has had a lot of building work done over the past few years so I am surprised that you found it as unfavourable inside as you did. But, as you rightly say, everybody will have different opinions.
I have to be honest and say that the comp one of our children goes to in Essex is far more run down on the inside than Mayflower but achieves consderably better results, so it does not necessarily tally.
Southend, as I have said before, is excellent. The whole ethos is first class. They respect the children for who they are and do not bottle them up and try to make them into different people than they are set to become.
Results are really very important but look at the whole picture. Chelmsford has no excuse for not producing chart busting results. It has pupils which come at the very top of the 11+ pass list and any other results would just not be acceptable.
Both Southend and Westcliff take more of a variety of children, still bright but not quite at the level of Chelmsford (although, of course if you live nearer Southend you are likely to put one of them down as a first choice and some poeple prefer them to Chelmsford anyway). However, their results are also excellent, and to me this says a lot about the teaching.
I cant speak much about Westcliff but Southend is thoroughly recommended. I am sure that Chelmsford is excellent too but most of the children I know who have gone there have either loved it or loathed it and the gifted daughter of a friend of mine hated it because she felt that they smothered her and would not let her make her own decisions about her life. She also said that life there was "like being on a boat. Every now and then someone fell overboard and their friends had to man the lifeboat.". The stress can really get to some pupils.
Choices are what life is about. Incidentally, up to the time of writing, they have never done half GCSEs at Southend or Chelmsford, where they offer several of these at Westcliff. It follows, I think, and this is purely an example, that where a pupil may take 10 full GCSEs and gain 10 B grades, a pupil at Westcliff could gain 11 and gain 11 B grades, thus pushing the school further up the league tables.
