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 Post subject: writing on the paper
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:25 pm
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I've read somewhere that the children are not allowed to write on the question paper for the GLoucestershire grammars' test.

Can this be confirmed by someone - and, if true, why so?

how would they tell? would all the papers be coded? surely they don't re-use them? they're not used to be sent out in future years (since the same old printed packs are distributed, by Pates at least, for practice). What would happen if they did write on them - surely they wouldn't fail?

I mean, they print out the alphabet in these papers "to help" but then the children sort of bounce their pencils back and forward in counting so could (inadvertently) make a mark - what then? the firing squad?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:14 pm
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Location: Gloucester
Hi Milla,

I don't know the implications of writing on the papers-but I can confirm that they are not allowed to write on them.They are given scrap paper instead.My DS practised with this method in his tutor lessons so he knew how to layout the question paper,the answer sheet and the scrap paper,so at least it wasnt a problem on the test day.

GM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:27 pm 
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I've been trying to make my dear random one do this, GM, it's just that the, er, methodology is a little hard to tie down. It does seem a shame not to be able to use the paper - anyone any ideas what they do with the old ones??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:57 pm 
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As a teacher I think the reason that pupils are asked not to write on the paper is to deter some children from writing all of their answers on the question paper.
I know plenty of children who have written on the paper. They are certainly not going to use them again next year around!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:20 pm 
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thanks, teach, it was that vague threat that somehow one would be pillioried or otherwise exposed and denounced!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:44 am 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Gloucestershire
Every now and again, over in 'appeals' one hears about children who have wasted time when given a re-used question paper that the previous user has written on. Either they wait for the invigilator to produce a new one, or spend time rubbing out the markings in case they are told off.

I seem to remember hearing that used in a Gloucestershire appeal within the last few years, though it was only a few faint marks and the child had a very low score (and for that matter VRQ / CAT score that backed up the poor test mark).

From what I've heard, though I may well be wrong, the first, 'easier' paper is one of a series 3 or 5 that are rotated each year, so there may well be marks on it if the child hasn't used scrap paper. The second 'hard' paper is produced new each year with different, new question types.

One thing I find interesting is that it's actually quite a good indication of if a child has been tutored, and how much. "How on earth do you work that one out?" I hear you say...

Well, tutors tend to teach the 21 question types found in the paper. So the first paper contains these, and a tutored child will often sail through them as they know what to expect. They then come to the second paper and are flummoxed - 'I've not seen these types of question before - how do I do them?'. At which point they either panic, can't answer them or turn brain power on. So often they get a high score in the first paper and a lower score in the second.

Untutored children have to work harder on the first paper, but find the second no harder, and often have scores that are similar for both papers. The old Denmark / Tommies method of children having to get a score of 150 in each paper weeded out those who couldn't think on the spot and did badly in the second paper. Now all schools work on a combined score.

Don't forget that my experience is based on the lower end of the scale, where children are the subject of appeals. I suspect that a child who was tutored but is bright anyway would have no problem with the second paper. Also, for those of you worrying, no, I don't pay much attention to tutoring in appeals - too many parents will say in an appeal "no my child wasn't tutored" when in fact they were, so it would be unfair to penalise those telling the truth if asked. And, yes, I do have evidence of a parent lying to the panel (for one we allowed when they said the child had not been tutored, yet I found out later that they'd been given 2 years of once a week full-on tutoring, and happens to be struggling at the school).

_________________
Capers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:36 am 
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Bit confused now Capers :? .

are you saying that the second paper doesn't stick to the 21 types, as I though it did and DS1 didn't mention meeting anything he wasn't familiar with -

or that tutors are familiar with some of the exact questions that will come up on the first paper and therefore their students will do spectacularly well on that paper?

I had been told about this before DS1 sat the test and was advised to get a tutor. I didn't and he still passed. Something Orson said a while back though led me to believe that the second scenario was no longer happening.

Milla re re-use I did read way back that someone's DD had wasted time rubbing out previous writing so they must be reusing them from somewhere but I assumed they were from another county.

I do think it is riduculous that they can't write on the paper as it makes more sense than transferring to scrap and sorry the writing answers in the wrong place seems a rather weak excuse. Surely a bright child should be able to follow a basic instruction like write all the answers on the answer sheet :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:07 am 
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Thanks, all.
And, yes, Capers, tell us more! or is it that they are worded differently, or introduce different answer sheets (I remember Tolstoy usefully informing us that the answer sheet appeared different last year). And, if the scores are now merged so that a higher first (easier) paper can "carry" a weaker (more difficult) second paper, what's their thinking in changing the format of the second paper.
Goodness, I'd love to clap eyes on that second paper, even well after the event, just to see what it all means.
As an appeal judge, do you get to see the papers themselves, Capers, or just the marks / appeal info?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:34 am 
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No the answer sheet on paper 2 was as we expected it was the paper 1 answer sheet that was different. DS1 did think that paper 1 was easier though because he finished in time whereas he didn't quite finish paper 2.

Interestingly his marks were more or less identical on both papers getting one more mark I believe for paper 2. However I suppose the standardisation of that paper would result in a higher mark for less correct answers if the tutored but less able struggle with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:37 am 
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oh, I hadn't realised that there were differing answer sheets for the 2 papers.
Did the school give you a breakdown of the score? All we had to go on was what it was within the Pates cohort. And, sorry if you've said this before, I'm Mrs Goldfish at the mo, did you approach the school for this info or did they provide it as a matter of course. I never knew what my DS got within the Tommy's grouping. Did it vary wildly from the Pates score (I know that the Crypt score is different again and seems to bear little relation to the Pates one)


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