Am I missing something?

[Amber]

when I took my ds to visit our local comp,we looked in on a year 10 maths class. The pupils were trying to find the area of one face of a cube with certain measurements given. We thought it was a little easy,especially when teacher said "dont worry about doing the maths, you can use a calculator " Also a friends group who went into the class after us observed them doing the same excercise with a pyramid, the class couldnt't work out the answer but the 10yr old ds could! This is school which was on 41% gaining 5 grade a-c, where I have spoken to newly qualified teachers who stayed a week and left the profession. Talking to parents who have dcs at the school it does appear to be a lot better than it was though.
My ds is going to grammar.

In a comprehensive, some Year 10 students would indeed struggle with finding the area of the face of a cube. These children -in most comprehensives- would be in a lower set and would be looking at taking foundation level GCSE (max grade=C). On the other hand, a top set in that same school would be doing exactly the same work as offered in a grammar school, and would be aiming for and obtaining grades A and A*. The latter students would also be using a calculator: because all Maths GCSEs have a calculator paper and a non-calculator paper, even those taken by students in grammar schools (the same exams, remember, at higher tier - like about 25% of students in comps, depending on your area - more in Glos because we have superselectives). Less able children in Year 10 might well struggle with maths an able 10-year old can do - this is not necessarily a reflection on the school. I am working with some Year 7 children who are performing at the same level as an able 9 year old. The reasons for this are very, very complex - genetic, environmental, parental, school... why on earth would a teacher leave the profession over it? It is what keeps me coming back for more! The idea of 10-year olds looking down on less able older children is distasteful to me - lucky them if they find it easy.

The work ethos in the high sets of a comprehensive is likely to compare very well with a GS - and the comp might well be even more motivated to bring on high achievers, because it will reflect well on its reputation.

I have said before and I will say again - the curriculum offered in a grammar school is likely to be exactly the same as that offered in the comp up the road, and, in most cases, in the expensive independent too. The results in the GS jolly well ought to be good given the resources devoted to selecting children who are destined to get good results. Go and compare the results of the top sets in a comprehensive with those in a grammar school and you might get somewhere - it is unfair to cite results of less able children in this context. Some grammar schools are now shortening KS3 in order to spend even longer on KS4, the GCSE preparation. No comprehensive I know is doing this, and it is another reason why the GCSE results of GSs should be good - the kids get longer to do the work. Results are not everything, littlebaker - you need actually to like a school, and see your child being happy and fulfilled there. The able ones will do well wherever they are, if they are happy!

[haeckel]

Nice post Amber

We have been stricken over the comp/grammar issue before sending off the choices form last Sunday. We plumped for grammar, although it means our ds will be travelling far further, because our ds would like to be a scientist, so he says, and we would like him to do separate sciences, and for that to be a given that he will be able to do that.

[cheltgirl]

TURTLE GLOS WROTE: when I took my ds to visit our local comp,we looked in on a year 10 maths class. The pupils were trying to find the area of one face of a cube with certain measurements given. We thought it was a little easy,especially when teacher said "dont worry about doing the maths, you can use a calculator " Also a friends group who went into the class after us observed them doing the same excercise with a pyramid, the class couldnt't work out the answer but the 10yr old ds could! This is school which was on 41% gaining 5 grade a-c, where I have spoken to newly qualified teachers who stayed a week and left the profession. Talking to parents who have dcs at the school it does appear to be a lot better than it was though

Amber is spot on.

And it;s not just comps who have strugglers. When we visited the Crypt they made a big point of saying how they supported those boys who found maths hard and were not on line for an A. These boys were put in smaller groups to help them. We saw examples in other subjects.

It's not just comps where you will spot people who are not on course for As.

At the end of the day, it's where your kids will be happy to learn. I know someone whose daughter turned down a sixth form place at top school to stay at her local comp because she was happy there.

[gloucestermum]

And it;s not just comps who have strugglers. When we visited the Crypt they made a big point of saying how they supported those boys who found maths hard and were not on line for an A. These boys were put in smaller groups to help them. We saw examples in other subjects.

It's not just comps where you will spot people who are not on course for As.

Exactly-when we visited Tommies I commented to the sixth former taking us around that 6 was a really small number to have in a maths class.He then told me that it was normal if anybody is struggling.

[turtleglos]

The reasons for this are very, very complex - genetic, environmental, parental, school... why on earth would a teacher leave the profession over it? It is what keeps me coming back for more! The idea of 10-year olds looking down on less able older children is distasteful to me - lucky them if they find it easy.

I dont think I was clear, the teacher left due to being attacked. I dont think that any of the 10yr olds(or their parents,certainly not in our case) looked down on these students at all. We had actually put it down to the quality of the teaching! Perhaps if we had been told it was a lower set we would have been less as it was we were just told yr 10. In my dcs primary school,tables are worked on so much that I would have expected a yr 10 student to know 8x7 without needing a calculator, surely if they didnt know them going into secondary school they should have been helped much sooner.
The grammars that we looked at all assured us that help would be available for those who asked.
As Amber has said,its about the feel of the school and if its ethos is right for your dc.

[Amber]

. We had actually put it down to the quality of the teaching! Perhaps if we had been told it was a lower set we would have been less as it was we were just told yr 10. In my dcs primary school,tables are worked on so much that I would have expected a yr 10 student to know 8x7 without needing a calculator, surely if they didnt know them going into secondary school they should have been helped much sooner.

8x7 is supposed to be the hardest multiplication fact to remember, apparently! Go and ask everyone you meet tomorrow what the answer is. My guess is that the 10 and 11 year olds will do best, followed by the over 65s. Anyone between 14 and 50 will struggle to answer in under 10 seconds, unless they are a teacher of maths, or of year 6s; or a parent who has a child who has just taken GS exams!

[muminTewkes]

I'm jumping into this a little late..and with possibly not much more to add other than what has already been said(Amber )
DS1 will be going to GS and not the local(good)comp.Until March,admittedly we arent sure which GS place he will be offered(Pates/STRS)but he will be at one of them come September 2011.
For US (him)it wasnt the results we looked at-it honestly wasnt.Im aware that the local comp has good results too but couldnt honestly tell you where all three considered schools are in any league tables or whatever.
I'm SURE DS1 would come out at the end of his secondary school with very good results regardless of which school he attended.He is driven enough in himself and the local comp is supportive enough to facilitate this.
The point was, for us ,all about his journey getting these results.That journey had to be right for HIM.
I saw him fitting so easily at Tommies and also,in another way,at Pates, in a way he wouldnt/doesnt at the local nearest school-thats why Id have walked over hot coals for him to to get his place.

[turtleglos]

8x7 is supposed to be the hardest multiplication fact to remember, apparently! Go and ask everyone you meet tomorrow what the answer is. My guess is that the 10 and 11 year olds will do best, followed by the over 65s. Anyone between 14 and 50 will struggle to answer in under 10 seconds, unless they are a teacher of maths, or of year 6s; or a parent who has a child who has just taken GS exams!

Why is this? basic maths is the foundation you build on,if you dont know basic facts how can you possibly be expected to expand on your knowledge successfully?
Also the other reasons that my ds1 chose grammar is because of the behaviour and aspirations of the dcs in our street who go to the local comp. The school offers french and spanish compared to the local grammar which does french,german,spanish and latin. The comp teaches science as 1 lesson where the grammar has chemistry,physics and biology. The grammar also teaches astronomy further up the school which the comp doesn't.
On the open day the teachers in the comp barely spoke to us,in the local grammar we were acknowledged in every class we went into(1 teacher asked each child which language they had learnt and greeted them in that language).
In the grammars the dcs were engaged in the lessons,in the comp they looked surly and bored.
These are some of the reasons we opted for the grammar school,as it is my ds1 did very well,and will be happy whichever grammar school he ends up at. If we felt that we had a good comp in our catchment we probably wouldnt have even considered grammar.
(Sorry,I feel as though I am repeating myself a lot in different threads however I only have a limited amount of information/experience of secondary schools to make my judgements on)

[chicko-mum]

8x7 is supposed to be the hardest multiplication fact to remember, apparently! Go and ask everyone you meet tomorrow what the answer is. My guess is that the 10 and 11 year olds will do best, followed by the over 65s. Anyone between 14 and 50 will struggle to answer in under 10 seconds, unless they are a teacher of maths, or of year 6s; or a parent who has a child who has just taken GS exams!

Why is this? basic maths is the foundation you build on,if you dont know basic facts how can you possibly be expected to expand on your knowledge successfully?

Perhaps it's because mental arithmetic is practised far less at secondary level so the ability to recall 'fades' as the calculator is used more widely. 7x8 is my favourite multiplication (no idea why) and I've taught my DC to remember it by 5,6,7,8 -56 is 7 8's. . DS struggles with 6x8. I always turn times tables around to the version I find easier - 8x7 becomes 7x8 in my head. It's strategies like these which help. But someone needs to point them out. My DCs' primary school teaches them some patterns with the tables but I don't think it goes much beyond that. They are expected to learn them and are tested regularly but I am the one who helps them learn the tricky ones so they can move on.

I saw him fitting so easily at Tommies and also,in another way,at Pates, in a way he wouldnt/doesnt at the local nearest school-thats why Id have walked over hot coals for him to to get his place.

That's exactly how we felt - and how DD also felt after seeing the schools - and so we too are going down the selective road (in London). Plus DD says she wants to learn Latin and it's not available in the local comp. You should see the soles of my feet...

[max00]

England secondary school league tables

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/e ... se_lea.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;