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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Hi All,
I have been reading up in the appeals section trying to put a case together and keep coming across people who know how their children actually scored on the test papers. Is it possible to get this information from somewhere? I wasn't aware we would be allowed this sort of information. It would be good to exactly what went wrong.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:54 pm 
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As far as I know there are no copies of the Gloucestershire 11+ test paper. Indeed they are vigilantly guarded after the test so that no-one can filch one !

As for scores, I don't think anyone knows their score for Pates, but parents are given their children's position in their cohort for the other schools they apply to. To some extent this can be used to triangulate the approximate successful entry score for Pates and each GS (you can for example say that the highest and lowest scores for boys who applied for STRS and were offered a place at Pates were X and Y). This is perhaps one reason why some junior schools encourage parents to apply for all the grammar schools, even if they have no intention of sending their children there.

Not sure if this helps...


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:17 pm 
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r


Last edited by platypus on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:55 pm 
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That will be interesting reading. I'm amazed that they give you a copy of the paper at all, but it might have made things easier to understand if we had them before we had to submit the appeal.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:47 am 
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Location: Gloucestershire
platypus wrote:
I think the papers might be sent to you before your appeal is heard, so you would know the raw score then.

No, they're not sent out.

They will, in all likelyhood, be re-marked by hand before the appeals to ensure the computer marking was correct. There is a very occassional error, and remember that 'scores can go down as well as up'!

You (and the panel) can ask to see the answer sheets during the appeal. To be honest, they're not very enlightening, as they're just a multiple-choice tick sheet, from which you can gleen if the child finished each paper, if there were sections they left out, struggled with or misinterpreted or if they ticked more than one answer for a question. None of this actually makes much difference to the appeal; it's more a curiosity thing.

Neither the parents nor the panel will get to see the question paper.

Knowing the Raw Score is also a bit of a red herring, as it would be hard to argue over standardisation - it is fair for all children, and has been proven to be so.

Some schools give out the standardised scores when the indicative results came out; some might give them out for children who have passed, for children who pass but are not in the top 120, for those who are close misses. Others may say 'the score is within the first/second... quintile who passed / failed' without giving the actual score. And of course, each school will take the same raw scores and standardise them against their own cohort, so standardised scores are different for each school for the same child.

For appeals, you're better off pushing mitigating circumstances rather than arguing over the marking system!

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:12 am 
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Last edited by platypus on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:11 pm 
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I think I'm glad we won't see the paper or know the raw scores for each paper. It would seem pretty pointless without knowing the questions. :D


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Location: Gloucestershire
ofsoundmind wrote:
I think I'm glad we won't see the paper or know the raw scores for each paper. It would seem pretty pointless without knowing the questions. :D

You should be able to find it out at the appeal.

Interestingly, some like to think they can use the scores for the different papers to see who was heavily tutored to get through the exam, and who was just naturally bright.

The theory goes like this: The first paper is a 'recycled' paper, used every 4 or 5 years (which is why they don't let people see the paper itself - you might pass the questions on), and features more or less the question types that are taught by the tutors. The second paper is new every year, and has different types of questions, which none of the children have encountered. The questions in both papers are of similar difficulty.

Tutored children will find the first paper easier than the second, hence the second is often thought of as 'harder'. Untutored will find them equally difficult.

A good score in the first paper, and a poor one in the second, suggests that the child was very used to that type of question, and not naturally able (without tuition) to work out the answers in the second paper.

When parents are asked in passing what preparation the children did for the exam, some parents tell the truth, others may not do (I know this from chatting in the playground). It can be proven - say - if a child from a school known to spend 2 or 3 years tutoring their pupils for the 11+ has the score style outlined above, and the parents waltz in saying they just did the practice papers at home. Gotcha!

Don't forget, though that there are loads of tutored children who did get in, and likewise ones who were untutored, or just genuinely did the practice book papers. There are also other reasons that a child did better in the first paper - for example, there was a major disturbance in the exam room during the second paper.

As for us (parents / panalists) not seeing the papers - I'd love to, just to try one out after all the years since I took the 11+ - I always enjoyed that type of test.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
The second paper ... has different types of questions, which none of the children have encountered.


I'm sure you know a great deal more about all this than me, but that's not what my son and his mates reported from this year's test. Though both papers had one or two questions of a type they had not seen previously, almost all the questions in the second paper were types they were familiar with from going through the usual preparatory material. FWIW, he also considered the 'new' questions to be comparatively easy.

Any other views ? (or are we all trying to blot out the memory of VR tests…)


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:48 pm 
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my boy did significantly better on the second paper - 140. And, yes, he was tutored in group sessions. Perhaps because it was more interesting and not just same old same old?


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