11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
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Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
Of course selection at 11 is about far more than the 11+ test. Socially selective comprehensive schools are far more common - KLB? Balcarras?
If you ignore the Grammar Schools ....... If you want to find an outstanding school, look in the posh part of town.
By posh I mean the part of town that you need to be socially / financially advantaged in order to afford a house near the school.
I do not suggest that Grmmar Schools are a perfect or even a good answer to social mobility but the very socially selective comprehensive schools are also a problem.
There is a huge range from excellent to poor amongst comprehensives.
It is clear in the non grammar school counties that comprehensive schools are far from a good answer to fair and equal access to a good school. In those areas you often hear of parents buying a house in the catchment area of a good school - well, you often hear of middle class parents (who can afford it) saying that.
The trouble with the international studies so often quoted is that they are from a different context - social attitudes to educatin vary hugely from one country to another - from ENgland to scandanavia to Asia, for example. A lot is claimed in such research and you can always find a 'leading' academic to support either side of an argument. I wish I knew the answer!
Why don't they just close all the bad schools? WHat is a bad school? We would have an argument at the cut off point but some would not be good enough by whatever criteria - basically - which schools would you not want for your child, if not good enough for yours then why should enyone have to go there?
Close the bad ones and carefully expand the good ones - Most schools are good. I think there are 32 secondary schools in Gloucs - if the top 20 took on 1 extra form each then we could close about 4 or 5 of the 'worst' schools. The top 20 would soon readjust and might go from excellent to good but then everyone would be going to at least a good school. Hey Presto. Move over Gove.
If you ignore the Grammar Schools ....... If you want to find an outstanding school, look in the posh part of town.
By posh I mean the part of town that you need to be socially / financially advantaged in order to afford a house near the school.
I do not suggest that Grmmar Schools are a perfect or even a good answer to social mobility but the very socially selective comprehensive schools are also a problem.
There is a huge range from excellent to poor amongst comprehensives.
It is clear in the non grammar school counties that comprehensive schools are far from a good answer to fair and equal access to a good school. In those areas you often hear of parents buying a house in the catchment area of a good school - well, you often hear of middle class parents (who can afford it) saying that.
The trouble with the international studies so often quoted is that they are from a different context - social attitudes to educatin vary hugely from one country to another - from ENgland to scandanavia to Asia, for example. A lot is claimed in such research and you can always find a 'leading' academic to support either side of an argument. I wish I knew the answer!
Why don't they just close all the bad schools? WHat is a bad school? We would have an argument at the cut off point but some would not be good enough by whatever criteria - basically - which schools would you not want for your child, if not good enough for yours then why should enyone have to go there?
Close the bad ones and carefully expand the good ones - Most schools are good. I think there are 32 secondary schools in Gloucs - if the top 20 took on 1 extra form each then we could close about 4 or 5 of the 'worst' schools. The top 20 would soon readjust and might go from excellent to good but then everyone would be going to at least a good school. Hey Presto. Move over Gove.
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
Gloucsdad, I absolutely agree with you about the socially selective comprehensives and the issues that they bring.
In my opinion school systems (and many other systems), however well intentioned, will eventually break down to match social standings and inevitably mean that the comprehensive socially inclusive system loses the ability to be just that.
Is losing the 'one size fits all' system a bad thing though? Should all children be taught exactly the same things regardless of how it suits the individual child? I don't mean because it has had to through social exclusion but because it recognises that all children are different... I don't have the answers.
In my opinion school systems (and many other systems), however well intentioned, will eventually break down to match social standings and inevitably mean that the comprehensive socially inclusive system loses the ability to be just that.
Is losing the 'one size fits all' system a bad thing though? Should all children be taught exactly the same things regardless of how it suits the individual child? I don't mean because it has had to through social exclusion but because it recognises that all children are different... I don't have the answers.
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
There is a tendency for a school to get worse if it gets bigger.
There is research that suggests that there a a limit t o the size a Human group can get before it becomes unmanageable and socially detrimental.
This is apparent in the army where a regiment goes from 600 - 1000, never bigger. Field Marshal Slim said "There are only 3 commands worth having: A platoon of 30 where you know each other intimately; A regiment of 1000 is the largest command where you can know all the people by name; and the whole army where you can do what you want with them."
These numbers evolved over centuries and are naturally functioning units based on the way humans interact. I equate them with: 30=class 1000= secondary school all= secretary of state
There have been some new secondaries where they have a satellite system to combat overgrowing manageable proportions.
A school of 5000 is divided into 5 satellite schools (Sometimes on the same enormous site, spread out like a starfish) Each satellite has its own Head and organisation but they share the big expensive facilities like science and sports (timetabling around each other). A small team co-ordinate the 5. Sometimes they link up for whole group events. So it works like and army with 5 regiments.
The other snag with the idea of a few big good schools is the same as that over Gov proposals for fewer bigger hospitals: Transport for the users, especially when considering poorer families.
There is research that suggests that there a a limit t o the size a Human group can get before it becomes unmanageable and socially detrimental.
This is apparent in the army where a regiment goes from 600 - 1000, never bigger. Field Marshal Slim said "There are only 3 commands worth having: A platoon of 30 where you know each other intimately; A regiment of 1000 is the largest command where you can know all the people by name; and the whole army where you can do what you want with them."
These numbers evolved over centuries and are naturally functioning units based on the way humans interact. I equate them with: 30=class 1000= secondary school all= secretary of state
There have been some new secondaries where they have a satellite system to combat overgrowing manageable proportions.
A school of 5000 is divided into 5 satellite schools (Sometimes on the same enormous site, spread out like a starfish) Each satellite has its own Head and organisation but they share the big expensive facilities like science and sports (timetabling around each other). A small team co-ordinate the 5. Sometimes they link up for whole group events. So it works like and army with 5 regiments.
The other snag with the idea of a few big good schools is the same as that over Gov proposals for fewer bigger hospitals: Transport for the users, especially when considering poorer families.
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
yeah, but ... some of the most expensive / des houses in Cheltenham are in Pittville.gloucsdad wrote:If you ignore the Grammar Schools ....... If you want to find an outstanding school, look in the posh part of town.
By posh I mean the part of town that you need to be socially / financially advantaged in order to afford a house near the school..
As for Amber*'s thing about mixing everyone up and creating a better education system. I'd love to believe that was so, I would really love to believe in Utopia, that in the few scant years we had alloted to us as parents we could be as selfless as to sacrifice our child's potential on the altar of them NEEDING RE GCSE to be a farmer and God forbid we jeopardise that for the hoops and jumps that have been put in place stymie us all.
Just today, my New Best Fret is OMG my son might not get enough A*s in irrelevant (to him) subjects to be considered, in FOUR YEARS time by a meaningful university. The joy, the life, the living while you're at school, the living while you're young and learning in a non-merely-school-led way is denied us. Everyone is pre-proscribed, you're a potential "failure" at 10 by dint of crazy standardisation. It's bonkers.
Even when DS1 was 2, was 3, at nursery (impoverished but gorgeous state nursery with a real all-embracing, all cultures all everything) he was quickly picked up on by the head and glued to a little lad who couldn't/wouldn't/didn't talk. DS1 (exhausting chatterbox) more or less taught this boy to talk by swamping him in language. Head used to walk the two of them round the town (strangely, even 10 or so years ago, this deviance from rules was gloriously ok) and to her house to make hot chocolate and stroke the cats. This was fine by me, happy with the alternative role as mini-guider, liked the other boy, could do gluing and sticking at home etc etc, appreciated the individual thing, actually even then adored the breaking of rules (such a rebel, sigh).... BUT... At The End Of The Day, if I'd been different I might have thought, hang on, I don't want my boy used as a social experiment, mini-teacher, where's his gluing skills in all of this. And in the frightfully results-bound system we're stuck in such flexibility / enjoyment in the different / acceptance of deviation gets curtailed a little more.
While future employment still hinges on your ability to describe a meandering river and colour in a sheet on Divali then parents are going to be busy force feeding the rump of their child through the mincer of the exam system.
*Amber - just for the record, you're not quoted to have a pop, but your ideas are often the most polemical / interesting / etc so will attract a bit of a back shout. Shouting back is fine. It's just continuing the conversation, not a witch hunt. Honest!
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
Hmph managed to copy this across from the Pates strand where Amber and I got into this topic.
My Dad was the HMI with national responsibility for environmental education - used to rail against the 11+. It was even worse in those days, and much more devisive and labelling.
When he taught (geology and biology) he used to haul his classes off on merry jaunts into the forest or hills, sometimes off in his boat (a large cruising catamaran) to visit ruins, life and rocks on islands in the Firth of Forth - imagine the risk assessment you'd need today. Back then no-one batted an eyelid
It was however very much down to what teacher you got and not everyone has a boat big enough for their class. At that stage though he was teaching at Edinburgh academy and afterwards Winchester. Went into state education when he became an HMI and tried to put in some of the best practices from the private sector.
Before he died he was involved in a project to make a more creative curriculum and improve school grounds for more creative playtimes and educational use, e.g wildlife areas, orchards, fun landscaping, outdoor classrooms. 20 years later and some of his work is finally seeing the light of day.
My Dad was the HMI with national responsibility for environmental education - used to rail against the 11+. It was even worse in those days, and much more devisive and labelling.
When he taught (geology and biology) he used to haul his classes off on merry jaunts into the forest or hills, sometimes off in his boat (a large cruising catamaran) to visit ruins, life and rocks on islands in the Firth of Forth - imagine the risk assessment you'd need today. Back then no-one batted an eyelid
It was however very much down to what teacher you got and not everyone has a boat big enough for their class. At that stage though he was teaching at Edinburgh academy and afterwards Winchester. Went into state education when he became an HMI and tried to put in some of the best practices from the private sector.Before he died he was involved in a project to make a more creative curriculum and improve school grounds for more creative playtimes and educational use, e.g wildlife areas, orchards, fun landscaping, outdoor classrooms. 20 years later and some of his work is finally seeing the light of day.
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
I disagree. It's perfectly correct to disagree with the system, work to change it, but make use of it whilst it's still in existence. It's not being wrong at all, but making the best of a faulty system; well, faulty in your opinion...Amber wrote: And yes I have bought into it too and have one child at grammar, one about to go. So as well as being opinionated, I am a rotten hypocrite.
Same with laws - you may disagree with one & campaign to change it, but you have to abide with it until it gets changed.
Capers
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
I assume you refer to Stroud. I suspect that Stroud being Stroud, there is quite a high number of children of 'Stroudy' parents who do not let their children sit the exam for ideological reasons. And freethinking children who fail deliberately so the can go to the comp with mates (it happens, I know some who did that), so the local comps are more comprehensive than in - say Gloucester. The Stroud schools also have quite a large intake area. Hence the inner-town 'sink / failing' comp is by and large, pretty damned good, and well respected. Recently saw one of their recent past pupils on teacher training practice at Stroud High.lassett wrote:I have been thinking about this recently and I'm in two minds. On one hand I think that here in Gloucester, especially because of the number of Grammars for a small town, the effect of Grammars is not a good one.
I like all schools in Stroud. Well, ok, not over keen on the Steiner ones, but that's private & out of this discussion.
Capers
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
errr, I think lassett was referring quite clearly to Gloucester. (other towns/grammars do existcapers123 wrote:I assume you refer to Stroud.lassett wrote:I have been thinking about this recently and I'm in two minds. On one hand I think that here in Gloucester, especially because of the number of Grammars for a small town, the effect of Grammars is not a good one.
)Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
Milla's post, brings to mind the Leckhampton 'corridor' or 'black hole' as it has come to be known in Cheltenham. This was/is an idea that those children from the 'posher' parts of town who fell between the ever diminishing circles around Bournside and Balcarrus schools would be allocated Pitville school and the result would be a enhanced social mix at the latter school. To give parents their due, many went to have a look at Pitville and came back with very positive reports on the head, the investment in improvement, etc. Over the past few years, many families have been allocated Pitville school and so far, not one has actually taken up a place. House moves, independant options or lawyer led appeals have kept their children firmly on the other side of town.
I completely agree with the fact that grammar selection is far from perfect and that perhaps there does need to be some review of the system (although that would likely cost millions and conclude very little). Pates does start with a bright cohort but given a slightly different test or even a different test day, this cohort would likely be a very different (equally bright) one. One major appeal of grammar schools is that they seem to have more flexibility to innovate with teaching method and timetable options (eg. more time for extra curricular activities, etc.). Pates itself is now a teaching status school and Mr Fenton gives advice at national level on education. We need this sort of internal revision going on in all our schools (and I'm sure that many good comps do it too) because it's impossible to know what works until it's been tried.
I completely agree with the fact that grammar selection is far from perfect and that perhaps there does need to be some review of the system (although that would likely cost millions and conclude very little). Pates does start with a bright cohort but given a slightly different test or even a different test day, this cohort would likely be a very different (equally bright) one. One major appeal of grammar schools is that they seem to have more flexibility to innovate with teaching method and timetable options (eg. more time for extra curricular activities, etc.). Pates itself is now a teaching status school and Mr Fenton gives advice at national level on education. We need this sort of internal revision going on in all our schools (and I'm sure that many good comps do it too) because it's impossible to know what works until it's been tried.
Re: 11+ Selection sense or nonsense?
Thanks Milla, yes I was referring to Gloucester quite simply because it is the town I know best. I know very little about Stroud sorry Capers!Milla wrote:errr, I think lassett was referring quite clearly to Gloucester. (other towns/grammars do existcapers123 wrote:I assume you refer to Stroud.lassett wrote:I have been thinking about this recently and I'm in two minds. On one hand I think that here in Gloucester, especially because of the number of Grammars for a small town, the effect of Grammars is not a good one.
