Getting into a grammar school in Gloucester

[Amber]

If you talk about exceptional you would expect them all to achieve level 5 in SATs, that is not the case.
I have first hand knowledge over the past three years of children who got into Pate's, but did not achieve all level 5's in their SATs

And I live with a child who did get level 5s in all his SATS, and CATS in the 120s and 130s, who did not get in (though to be fair, we were not wanting Pate's). The big thing was, he was not coached at all.

You must must must get your child coached if you want him or her to go there. Do not underestimate the preparation going on in the leafy suburbs, and the single-mindedness of some parents, whatever appearances they try to put up. 'Dog eat dog' doesn't even touch on it!

And all that said, I really do also know one child who only did the practice paper sent by the school, no prep whatsoever, and flew in! He is exceptional though.

[EmeraldE]

You must must must get your child coached if you want him or her to go there.

Yes, many children are coached. However, it is not necessary to spend a fortune on expensive tutors. You can do it yourself but it takes time, patience, organisation, determination and some financial input (for resources, but some can be home made if you are PC literate It takes nerves of steel to fight the urge to get a 'real' tutor but if your child is willing to work with you and you can keep your resolve then it is very possible.

I now understand how my boys learn best, what motivates them (and de-motivates!) and how to steady those nerves coming up to the test. I would not have changed it for the world.

[haeckel]

From experience (two children at Pate's) I can say that you don't have to have them coached to pass the exam.

I'm sure it can help children around the borderline, but some children will be able to get into Pate's without any coaching, and it would be a shame if those parents who hadn't coached their children, for whatever reason, thought that coaching was a necessity. Also, for those children who are bright enough to work out how to answer the questions themselves, maybe coaching is an unnecessary burden and possibly even a hindrance. Wouldn't it be a richer and possibly more effective learning experience to work it all out yourself if you could, rather than being shown how to do everything?

[EmeraldE]

You don't HAVE to have your child tutored and if your child is very bright they may well not need much instruction. The 'game is upped' by so many people choosing to have tutoring for their kids to the point were if you do very little, or no tutoring, you may find your bright child has not got the edge over the tutored child. It is not an ideal system by any means but I have not been prepared to risk not passing by not tutoring my two DS's for the sake of my principles . I am sure knowing my kids did it on their own (or with little prep) would not console me one iota as I watch others trott off to grammar school while they do not . I helped mine because they were bright and I wanted them to have the best possible chance

I admire those parents who are confident enough to let their kids go it alone, but I am not one of them. As you can see the whole 'tutor' or 'not tutor' is a hot topic. Each of us must make our own minds up for our own children regardless of what others are doing, thinking or saying

[Tolstoy]

Heakelk. I appreciate what you are saying but the time constraints being rather tight and the expectations being so high, I doubt very much whether any child going into their 11+ without some practise would gain any benefit from working things out for themselves on the day?

Even the brightest child I know of practised for it. Granted my circle is small but surely not that exceptional. It is miss-leading to let people believe otherwise.

[turtleglos]

In January my ds1 told me that he wanted to go to the local grammer. I spoke to a number of parents whose dcs had just got into the school and made the decision that my ds1 had to be tutored. He is a very clever child however I realised that so many people had there dcs tutored that I didnt want him to 1st on the wait list while a tutorted dc got the place. I think that it would be great if no dcs were tutored and it was a genuine process.
Since I have been on this forum I have learnt a lot and feel that had I discovered it in January I would have been more confident to prep my ds1 myself.
His tutoring consists of learning new vocab and brushing up on his maths(about 3 sesions only). His tutor knows what to teach, I didnt!!!
Should my other dcs want to take the test, I will do the same for them as they also deserve the best chance I can give them.

[capers123]

You know your child best but what with todays 'wooly' report cards it can be hard to determine where exactly your child is in relation to the rest of their peers.

Trying to get quantitative information out of some schools is like trying to get blood out of stone. At Grammar appeals we very often get given the previous few years reports by the parents, and to be honest, they're often not worth the cost of the photocopying in many cases. "Johnny has been working very hard this year. He has created a super project about Rivers which I enjoyed reading very much. He works to the best of his ability". Which tells us nothing about what the ability is. Sometimes we're even given a complete colour copy of said project on Rivers, which often proves that the child has mastered skills of choosing the first choice on Google and has learnt to Cut and Paste.

SATS are OK as a rough benchmark, and I've known children with 5 5 4 thrive at grammar - sometimes they're perfectly capable of a 5 rather than 4, but respond better to the teaching style of a grammar to mixed ability class teaching. CATS are much better, but not normally given out to parents, though DD2's primary are considering doing so from this year.

[haeckel]

Heakelk. I appreciate what you are saying but the time constraints being rather tight and the expectations being so high, I doubt very much whether any child going into their 11+ without some practise would gain any benefit from working things out for themselves on the day?

Even the brightest child I know of practised for it. Granted my circle is small but surely not that exceptional. It is miss-leading to let people believe otherwise.

Hi Tolstoy, I agree it would be tough to work it out on the day. I was trying to suggest that children can work it out for themselves in advance, by practising. I'm sure this was the intention when the system was set up; it must be possible!

This is the approach I have taken with my youngest child this summer: getting him to go through test papers and work out the answers, rather than being trained. There would still be time to do this now, before 9th October, I believe, too.

I find this forum sort of scary; even though this approach worked for my other two children, the strong opinions here have made me worry about the need for tutoring. Although I really don't think that tutoring is automatically the best choice for every child.

I'm sorry if my post was misleading. The point I tried to make was that you do not have to have a tutor, I know this by experience, but there seems a very strong presence of opinion here that having a tutor is essential, and not everyone can afford/obtain a tutor. They should still have a go is what I am saying, because you CAN get in without tutoring.

Good luck to everyone, I'm sure we will all be very relieved when it is over, no matter what the outcome.

[turtleglos]

This is the approach I have taken with my youngest child this summer: getting him to go through test papers and work out the answers, rather than being trained. There would still be time to do this now, before 9th October, I believe, too.

Imho this is a form of tutoring! The only difference is that you felt confident enough in the process to do it yourself rather than paying somebody else.
Or do you not show them where they have gone wrong???

[haeckel]

This is the approach I have taken with my youngest child this summer: getting him to go through test papers and work out the answers, rather than being trained. There would still be time to do this now, before 9th October, I believe, too.

Imho this is a form of tutoring! The only difference is that you felt confident enough in the process to do it yourself rather than paying somebody else.
Or do you not show them where they have gone wrong???

What I have done is get him to work it out himself; if he gets something wrong, I have asked him to look at it again, have another think about it.

Children should be able to work it out themselves; when they do the verbal reasoning (and non-verbal reasoning) cat test at school, they are not trained how to do these first, but the children are still able to do it (to varying levels of course - but determing the different levels is the point of the test).

I read (NFER e.g.) that practising in this way can raise the child's score by a few points, and tutoring, as in systematically training a child in doing all the different sorts of questions, can raise the score by another few points, though this effect is not so apparent for brighter children.

When my older children took the test, Pate's sent out a full set of NFER papers for them to try before the test. I'm not sure if they do that still, but I thought that was a great idea: a quick practise before the real thing must be really helpful, and great that everyone had that opportunity, too.

I don't mean to be disparaging about other people's choices; only trying to represent a different opinion & experience.