Getting into a grammar school in Gloucester

[Tolstoy]

I know I was quite abrupt in my response haeckel and thank you for giving a fuller explanation as I do think that was necessary. I agree that tutoring by a paid tutor is not essential and many on this site advocate the DIY route. The system you suggest is pretty much what I did with my own children as I too wanted them to use their innate skills to work things out.

However as turtleglos points out this is still a form of tuition and one that would need a parent to know what tests to give and have the time and right sort of relationship with their child to do it. It also still penalises those children who don't for whatever reason have a wide vocabulary. Vocabulary has always been a problem when it comes to certain academically able children succeeding in VR tests and I think this is probably becoming more so with a general dumbing down of television programs and reading material that is commonly available to them. Tutors will effectively tackle this area and widen the gap between those who have and those who have not been. A parent can also do this but needs to know that it should be done.

Edit written before your last post but still relevant I think?

[alisonc]

Just like to put my thoughts on this. We live in a rural part of the county and my daughter went to a primary school that I don't even think anyone went on to a grammar school. My DD's headteacher suggested putting her in for the test as he thought a grammar school would be best for her. She was the brightest in her class, but there were only 6 in her year group so that didn't mean much to me. My DD had no tutor and no practice whatsoever for the test. I felt that if she was bright enough, she would pass the test and would be ok. I didn't want to gear her up for the test and then find her struggling to keep up when she got there. And yes, she did pass the test and is extremely happy, and I know we've made the best choice for her. I also have another DD who is at the local comp who didn't want to go to grammar so never sat the test. We didn't consider Pates due to the distance, but I don't think she would have passed anyway.

[Milla]

I'd assumed that my boys' tutor did work the way that Haeckel suggested. It seems the only sensible way. To see how they did it for themselves and to give ideas or help based on their own modus operandi. Had never contemplated that tutoring might involve telling them straight from the off how to do it. Mine most def worked it out for themselves first and then had her guidance later.
As for whether one should or should not undertake tutoring, it's clear from the FAQ bit under Admissions on the website at Pate's that they expect it to happen.

"Does my child need ‘coaching’?
"Most parents do at least some practice with their children using some of the VR materials available from bookshops or some of the VR style questions that you can download from our website. As with any test, it seems likely that at least some familiarisation will help a child to do their best. We have not conducted a survey but are aware that many children do undertake months of prep for the test – sometimes from private tutors and some times with the help of primary school staff."

well, we all know what help the primary school staff tend to give ...

[Alice in Underland]

I have had an interesting and enriching time working with my son to help him prepare for eleven plus.No formal tutoring, just practice techniques and timing. There are plenty of written resources available and I did find the Susan Dougherty series useful.

You do have to make a commitment to spend time with with your child on a regular basis. Only do it yourself if you have the time and the patience.

I have found the vocabulary on the exam papers to have a very white, middle class and Christian bias. So if you do represent any other sector of the diverse British population be prepared to help out with this very English aspect of the exam.

[Milla]

I have had an interesting and enriching time working with my son to help him prepare for eleven plus.

I did, with my DS2 which is why I never just stuck rigidly to the "21 types" or whatever it is because he genuinely enjoyed working at all sorts of things and it seemed counter-productive not to let him mind wander in pursuit of following a very narrow and rigid path. I think that he was so terribly bored (and not one to complain or draw attention to himself in class) at school that it was a relief to work on anything. He's said, since starting Pate's, that he loves it because finally he's using his brain.
They don't have to be rocket scientists to get in and it's always worth remembering that they are taking the test up against other little ones, not against the likes of you and me!

[muminTewkes]

I have had an interesting and enriching time working with my son to help him prepare for eleven plus.

I did, with my DS2 which is why I never just stuck rigidly to the "21 types" or whatever it is because he genuinely enjoyed working at all sorts of things and it seemed counter-productive not to let him mind wander in pursuit of following a very narrow and rigid path. I think that he was so terribly bored (and not one to complain or draw attention to himself in class) at school that it was a relief to work on anything. He's said, since starting Pate's, that he loves it because finally he's using his brain.
They don't have to be rocket scientists to get in and it's always worth remembering that they are taking the test up against other little ones, not against the likes of you and me!

Milla,if he were up against the likes of you and me...well,no,just me then Id not have a care in the world !!

[Blu_Eyed_Betty]

I felt I had to reply to these posts.
I am shocked at the attitude of parents on here towards the grammar system; the whole point of the selection process is that children that are naturally bright get stretched with other children of the same ability. The point is not that children from cosy, supportive, mid/high income families get to cheat the system by getting tutored / practising for months and months before the exam, whilst bright kids - some of whom might have parents that might not even know what Pates Grammar School even is, or have the money, time or inclination to tutor them - get nowhere in the process.
It is totally unfair.
I know that the response will be, "But that's just the way it is". I know that's the way it is, and it sucks.
I guess a way of remedying the problem would be perhaps to give students in Y6 a surprise test at some point in the year - or perhaps change the format to allow children from less 'involved' backgrounds have a chance at getting a place.
Don't get me wrong - I teach at Balcarras, and as far as I'm concerned, students there are as well off, if not better, than those at Pates. But, the point is that the grammar school system should seek to select the genuinely brightest population of our children - not those that tutored to excellence by over-enthusiastic parents.

[pixiequeen]

B E Betty,

You have answered your post yourself really. Unfortunately that is the way the system works at the moment and I don't think there is a single parent on here who would disagree with you.

However, unless we all agree to stop tutoring our kids (and that means everyone, not just posters on this forum) - there is no way to change the system.

The only point on which I disagree with you is that tutoring does not get a less academic child through the grammar school test, it merely ensures that those that are bright enough to pass, get the places they deserve. I know several children who have passed the test this year with no tuition (and no help at home), and also several who had lots of tutoring but still didn't pass.

With regard to 'surprise testing' - this is done to a certain degree in year 5. Although the grammar school selection is not based on this test, I have not heard yet of a child who scored a below average or even average mark managing to pass the grammar school test because of lots of tutoring. It also gives teachers a chance to pick up on the brightest kids and suggest grammar school to their parents.

There are many threads on this forum discussing this issue - but remember this forum is about getting your child into grammar school, so of course it seems OTT.

[haeckel]

Perhaps it would be informative to have a survey linking Y5 CAT score to grammar schools?

[pixiequeen]

I think so, haeckel. Although my DD sat them, school managed to avoid giving us her scores and now that the test is over, I don't need them and probably won't push the issue. I do know that there are people on this forum who have posted their DC scores in the past. Perhaps it would be worth you starting a new thread to draw peoples attention to it? It is the kind of information I would have killed for a year ago.

Pixiequeen