judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Eleven Plus (11+) in Kent

Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators

11 Plus Mocks - Practise the real exam experience - Book Now
SSM
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Post by SSM »

I am behind you 100% mystery.

I also really cannot see how the proposal will help sevenonaks children, of which mine are.

What I see happening is that children with lower marks living closer to GSs will gain places and children in Sevenoaks with a higher mark will lose out to these. TWGGs allocates places on distance, and from what I understand, you have to be living within a 2 mile radius of the school to be able to gain a place. The same thing will happen with ToGs, Judd and The Skinners'.

In my opinion, allocating GS places on distance is wrong. To all intends and puposes, like it or not, 11+ is a competition and the children with the highest scores should get the places. We don't award gold medals to athletes that live close to the track and so can get there more easily, we award them to the athletes that do best. I know this sounds harsh, but unfortunately life is.
2d12go
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: 15 sept, West Kent super selectives admissions, adjudica

Post by 2d12go »

Mystery,

Please could you post the website addresses and contact details as I am not sure who I should contact and time is pressing.
wheelbarrow
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:01 pm

Re: judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Post by wheelbarrow »

PUBLIC MEETING IS ON WEDNESDAY 15TH SEPTEMBER AT 6 O'CLOCK AT TWBGS
mitasol
Posts: 2756
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:59 am

Re: 15 sept, West Kent super selectives admissions, adjudica

Post by mitasol »

If this objection relates to admissions for Sept 2011- I thought Kent LEA were supposed to provide a statement, to that effect, within the admissions documents.
SACode wrote:13. f) Whether the determined admission arrangements are the subject of an objection referred to the Schools Adjudicator, or, for Academies, the Secretary of State, and the date on which that was referred.
Local authorities must include all the relevant information as set out above in their composite prospectuses in respect of each school in the composite prospectus area. Where an objection has been raised against a school’s admission arrangements and the Schools Adjudicator has not reached a decision in time for the publication date, local authorities must still publish in their composite prospectus the determined admission arrangements along with a statement that an objection is still outstanding and the arrangements may be subject to change, and details of how to access the final arrangements.
http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/sacode/

Otherwise how will parents know that the admissions may be subject to change or be aware that they have an opportunity to participate.

If there is a statement to that effect I couldn't find it.
Just1-2go
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:43 pm
Location: Twells

Re: 15 sept, West Kent super selectives admissions, adjudica

Post by Just1-2go »

I would be very surprised if they could do all the necessary (whatever the "necessary" is) to put through any changes for the 2011 allocations with CAFs having to be submitted by the 31st Oct. I suspect they are aiming for the 2012 lot (this is pure opinion btw!)
mitasol
Posts: 2756
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:59 am

Re: 15 sept, West Kent super selectives admissions, adjudica

Post by mitasol »

Well I think an objection at this time of year is for 2011. After all the schools will not have published 2012 admissions yet, so technically there is nothing to object to, for 2012.

If you are right though, it would explain why the information is not in the admissions documents. :)
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Post by mystery »

Thanks for this. Maybe the start-time of the meeting can be added to the sticky please Etienne.

I don't know what the KCC submission says. Case manager at the School Ajudicator's office is back next Wednesday, he may be able to shed more light on things then.

I think the objection submissions are arguing that the school admissions criteria should not be superselective, that it should be based on distance only, and maybe also that preference should be given to those that live within Kent selective areas.

I have heard a KCC officer say that there would be enough grammar school places in Kent if there were not children from other counties taking up spaces at the superselectives. But when asked if there were any Kent children who had passed the test who did not have a space by the time waiting lists and appeals had taken place, he could not answer this question.

The argument is based on fairness, not that anything in the superselectives policies contravenes the admissions code of practice. Just that it unfairly treats those Kent parents who have to wait for waiting lists, appeals etc.

But I feel that without doing some careful statistical modelling of different policies, the changes in people's preferences this might result in etc etc, one cannot know what the impact could then be on a different geographical area where the only definite hope of a grammar school place on 1 March is through achieving a high score for the superselectives.

I think also from the LEA there is a strong feeling that all grammars in Kent would ideally take the top 25%, and this would combat the tuition culture which enables wealthy children to get into Judd etc, and defeats the original object of grammar schools to improve social mobility.

I'm not convinced. I know a primary near here where all the children have tutors from year 4 on, but few of them ever achieve the high scores needed for the superselectives. The children I know of who got into the superselectives did not have paid for tuition. This is just anecdotal, but I'm not sure if there's any evidence that the kids a the superselectives are any more or less tutored than those at the other grammars in West Kent.

These schools have a right to set their own admissions policies without the LEA dictating to them, but via the school adjudicator it is possible, it would seem, for the LEA to have some impact if the Adjudicator likes their arguments.

Personally, I think that probably everyone does ultimately get a grammar school place, so it's quite nice to have this choice of superselective and not superselective. But if you look at TWGGS results, they're often better at GCSE than the superselectives. So it's all very confusing as to what really matters. But the way it all works at the moment, the fact that the 6 West Kent grammar schools, which are geographically very close to one another, currently offer quite diverse provision from one another, and can accommodate people from far and wide as well as extremely close.
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: 15 sept, West Kent super selectives admissions, adjudica

Post by mystery »

MMmm some good points Mitasol, but when I phoned KCC today they said (Head of Admissions) that they could not send me a copy of their objection as submitted to the Schools' Adjudicator, that I would have to get it from the Schools' Adjudicator Office.
Toby
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Post by Toby »

mystery wrote: The children I know of who got into the superselectives did not have paid for tuition. This is just anecdotal, but I'm not sure if there's any evidence that the kids a the superselectives are any more or less tutored than those at the other grammars in West Kent.
Its not just tutoring though. Over half the girls in my daughter's class at ToGs went to independent prep schools prior to joining. Those schools are paid a lot of money by parents to provide extensive 11+ preparation - up to 2 years beforehand. That is their right of course, but it does distort the scores - the "best" pupils are not automatically the ones with the highest scores.
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: judd, skinners and togs enquiry into admissions policies

Post by mystery »

Yes I've heard that too - that a higher proportion of independently educated children get into the superselectives than the non-superselectives. Is that still the case now that people know the 11+ results before filling in the CAF, and there are more spaces on the CAF, and schools are equal preference. Before these more recent changes to the Kent admission system, putting one of the superselectives down on your CAF really jeopardised your chance of getting into any state school, selective or not, if you missed the high cut-off score.

People who were willing to pay for independent secondary education would have been more willing to take the risk with the superselectives.

Now that scores are known, I would have thought that (and maybe it will take a few years) more high scorers who were not at independents would apply. It's a bit chicken and egg, as there are high scorers who choose the non superselectives, and maybe the affluent, ex-prep school impression still lingers on and puts off some applicants.

I don't know.
Post Reply
11 Plus Platform - Online Practice Makes Perfect - Try Now