Thoughts now it is all over (well nearly)!

[Last1973]

don't worry JLT - colmans is right.

I understood from our local GS that GS is for kids of 5c+ at the end of year6....so a level 5 at the end of year 5 should have a successful headmistress appeal even if they are 10 points short (in the old marking system) of a pass. remember they only need around 50% to pass - surely a level 5 child cant do that drastically badly in her test that she's beyond reach of a headmistress appeal?

this appeal is done in the first half of October (heads find out their pupils test scores at the end of September) so it wont delay your process....in fact unless you ask for her scores you would never know whether your DD has passed the kent test by herself or through a headmistress appeal.

interestingly you can check on Ofsted website for a specific schools "entry level" - they give the proportion of kids entering the school (year7) with level 3, level 4 and level 5+. (Ofsted/schools use this to measure "value added"). there are a number of GS with a significant number of pupils achieving level4 at the end of year6.

as colmans says, it's the kids in the middle sets who need to rely on their test results a lot more. if they get lucky (this years maths paper turned into a guessing game for even the brightest) then there could be a lot of surprise passes in the playground on oct 16th.

Hi would you be able to help me find the entry level for Rochester grammer school please.
Thanks

[sunnysue]

sure...

go onto the Rochester GS website. half way down on the right hand side you can see 'school performance tables' - click on that.

on the 2013 ks4 performance tables there is a section called cohort information. scroll down and it will show you the number of middle attainers (the 'i' next to this explains that this means level 4 achievers at end y6). in rochester's case 13% of its students who took gcse's last year started out in the school with only a level 4.

actually it may not be accessible from Ofsted, but you can definitely get this information (and plenty of other interesting stuff to help you make choices) via this dfe link:
http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the 50% passmark is only a rough guide, varies by 6-8% depending on your child's birthday and is based on the previous format. who knows how the scoring will pan out this year and what will be required to pass? I've told my bright DD2 (who is a bit of a worrier/perfectionist) that if she scored 60% in each paper she'll definitely be fine and pass without need of a headmistress appeal.... I don't know this for certain, but cant believe the passmark will change that much under the new format.

MJMoore: I am gutted for you and have fingers tightly crossed that she got nearly every question she answered right. You must speak to your head this week and urge her to appeal if necessary. Let's hope it won't be necessary as I have heard of so many bright (level 5) children who ran out of time that surely the passmark for maths will be low.

I would so hate to have the pressure of a super-selective GS on my doorstep as that would be very difficult to feel confident about, however bright your child is....my heart goes out to you parents in your weeks of waiting.

[Last1973]

sure...

go onto the Rochester GS website. half way down on the right hand side you can see 'school performance tables' - click on that.

on the 2013 ks4 performance tables there is a section called cohort information. scroll down and it will show you the number of middle attainers (the 'i' next to this explains that this means level 4 achievers at end y6). in rochester's case 13% of its students who took gcse's last year started out in the school with only a level 4.

actually it may not be accessible from Ofsted, but you can definitely get this information (and plenty of other interesting stuff to help you make choices) via this dfe link:
http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the 50% passmark is only a rough guide, varies by 6-8% depending on your child's birthday and is based on the previous format. who knows how the scoring will pan out this year and what will be required to pass? I've told my bright DD2 (who is a bit of a worrier/perfectionist) that if she scored 60% in each paper she'll definitely be fine and pass without need of a headmistress appeal.... I don't know this for certain, but cant believe the passmark will change that much under the new format.

MJMoore: I am gutted for you and have fingers tightly crossed that she got nearly every question she answered right. You must speak to your head this week and urge her to appeal if necessary. Let's hope it won't be necessary as I have heard of so many bright (level 5) children who ran out of time that surely the passmark for maths will be low.

I would so hate to have the pressure of a super-selective GS on my doorstep as that would be very difficult to feel confident about, however bright your child is....my heart goes out to you parents in your weeks of waiting.

Thanks that's great to know as my daughter has just gone into year 5 and her levels were 4 so with a year to go till she takes test I'm hoping she will be on track with her revision.
Thanks Again

[tonbridgemum]

I agree with relaxed mum about parents pushing the system further and further to the limits each year.
Interestingly, at a recent consultation at DS's Grammar school, a English teacher told us that this year they had an increasing number of English level 3 SATS children starting who needed extra support. Surely this is where the tutoring for the 11+ fails? Children just being tutored for the test - to get to the Grammar, then its up to the school?
Things are still changing at a rapid pace and constantly moving. When another DS went to Judd 12 years ago, we didnt even know the test was taking place til the week before! Honestly! !

[mystery]

Which grammar was it that had so many level 3 English children? And what did she say English meant? Reading level 3 or spag level 3 or writing level 3?

If these children had sat and passed the kent test, how can one assume that it was to do with tutoring? The old eleven plus did not test any of these elements. It sounds like an odd tale. Maybe they were clever kids from really bad primaries? Or ones that did one of those easier to pass tests at some of the east kent grammars? Or children that had not passed by a long way but got in later because the school was filling an extra class.

[mystery]

I agree with Grammar schools.. my DD is in Year 7 at a NON Grammar..as she has always been "average" Academically. If i had wanted to push her, i could have got her a Tutor or sent her to Saturday school for the year or so prior to the 11 plus and maybe she would have just about passed it. But what's the point?? That's not what going to a Grammar is all about (IMO). She would not have thrived at a Grammar, and i wouldn't want her being bottom of the class all the way through secondary.
My DS has just sat the 11 plus (yesterday). He is naturally very bright and would thrive in a Grammar. He has never had a private Tutor, never been to any kind of extra education... all we did was a few practice papers in the summer holidays (as ad when he wanted to do one). IF he fails, then so be it. I look at it as "a loss to the system and the Grammar schools"!! But he is bright and would go into a normal school and still do well.
The system is wrong, i agree... but it's the parents and the Tutors that have destroyed the system. If no child was tutored...eg if there was no such thing as a private tutor... then each child would be in the same boat, sitting the same test... and the results would be fair across the board.

It is possible to think of a lot of other factors, other than private tuition, which mean children would not be in the same boat. It would make a good 11 plus question. Boiling everything down to private tutoring being a new and evil element is a bit too simplistic.

[tonbridgemum]

Which grammar was it that had so many level 3 English children? And what did she say English meant? Reading level 3 or spag level 3 or writing level 3?

The Grammar in question is TWGSB and Mystery I didn't pin her down about 'which' English this was as it wasn't in the context of the conversation we were having at the time!
I do know that when my son started at the school, his entry SATS levels were taken into account as a final, predicted target GCSE grade, so some schools seem to use the levels more than others. I was always frustrated by this as because he got 5's on entry this gave him A's target grades from year 7!! This meant whenever he dropped back in any subject, in his eyes, he was 'failing'. Oh and he did not get 10 A's at GCSE!
Anyway, I digress - I think the point I was making was that in some areas we are fortunate to have good schools where children will achieve at any school and parents now have so much pressure to send their children to Grammar. Surely those of you going through it now are picking up on that? I was just saying how this has evolved in such a short time.

[mystery]

So your child wasn't tutored - that's great for you but I don't really see how you jump to this connection between tutoring and some children entering TWGSB with level 3s in reading, writing or SPAG.

If a child with high level 5s enters a good school and they work hard one would hope that they would be achieving As at GCSE assuming the teaching is good and the child makes some effort.

I really don't see that it is a logical connection that tutoring, practice or whatever you call it is wrecking things.

At TWGSB, they include more than just year 6 SAT level in the target calculation - it includes what is considered to be a test of various aspects of innate ability. The idea of pointing out that a child is not on target in those 6 weekly reports they send out is to give the child, parent and school a chance to work out why that is not the case and try and change tack if they can.

I think they are trying to get children and parents to aspire to the grades they consider they are capable of rather than feel like failures because they don't achieve them. That's a completely different issue from tutoring, and if there are untutored children like yours (and there are still many) who are not achieving their targets for GCSE, that's actually a more significant issue to explore than some vague notion that tutoring is spoiling things for other people.

[tonbridgemum]

Actually Mystery I didn't say my DS hadn't been tutored. I said my DS that went to Judd hadn't.
I jumped on the bandwagon of tutoring to get next DS in Grammar as there was pressure from others for him to follow his brother. I wished I hadn't. Even though he got 5's in SATs he needed a headteacher appeal to get to TWGSB, which is why for final DS we decided that he would achieve wherever he was and he didn't take the test and is thriving at a Non Grammar.
I do not disagree with tutoring - just to the extent of it. I work in a school and am well aware of infants having tutors.

[mystery]

Ah right. Sorry if I misunderstood you. This business of the "extent" of tutoring is so hard to pin down though, isn't it? We'll never know for any child how well their school did or didn't prepare them in maths, for example. You might wish you hadn't tutored child number 2, but what if you had put him through a very thorough primary school, and he'd needed an appeal, gone on to get level 5's and then didn't get the target A's at TWGSB? Would you wish you hadn't sent him to a thorough primary school? These are all just imponderables and no-one is ever going to stop private tutoring - it just isn't possible and probably isn't desirable either if they are boosting a child's maths and English competencies.