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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:02 pm 
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The right of parents to send their children to grammar schools in neighbouring counties is under threat. This issue was raised in The Sunday Times, 25 January 2009, and the Telegraph, 26 January 2009. Kent is specifically mentioned. Please attach press links on this subject as you see them.
This has nationwide implications and is a serious threat to the remaining grammar schools. Talk to your MP.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 581302.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... tions.html


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 Post subject: Disagree
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:39 am 
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I can't see why requiring that children live in Kent to go to a school funded, at least in large part, by the taxpayers of Kent is in anyway 'unfair' on people living elsewhere than Kent.

Nor can I see any reason why it should be a 'threat' to those schools. Most grammar schools in Kent (with the exception, as far as I can see, of Skinners and Judd) have a place of residence requirement anyway and seem to thrive. Why should Skinners and Judd suddenly inwardly collapse if they are likewise subjected to a place of residence requirement and so are no longer able to take a few pupils from Surrey or Sussex or wherever you happen to live?

I'd wager that had you been living in Kent and had boys coming up to 11+ then you would have cheered this development. Anyway, this talk about 'rights' in the context of a grammar education is specious. You by happen chance have been able to take advantage of a loophole that may now be closed to you. That loophole was not a 'right'.


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 Post subject: Re: Disagree
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Location: Tonbridge & Tunbridge Wells
Paeder wrote:
I can't see why requiring that children live in Kent to go to a school funded, at least in large part, by the taxpayers of Kent is in anyway 'unfair' on people living elsewhere than Kent.

Nor can I see any reason why it should be a 'threat' to those schools. Most grammar schools in Kent (with the exception, as far as I can see, of Skinners and Judd) have a place of residence requirement anyway and seem to thrive. Why should Skinners and Judd suddenly inwardly collapse if they are likewise subjected to a place of residence requirement and so are no longer able to take a few pupils from Surrey or Sussex or wherever you happen to live?

I'd wager that had you been living in Kent and had boys coming up to 11+ then you would have cheered this development. Anyway, this talk about 'rights' in the context of a grammar education is specious. You by happen chance have been able to take advantage of a loophole that may now be closed to you. That loophole was not a 'right'.

Yes this development does sound interesting as we live in a village near Tonbridge / Tunbridge Wells and have 2 DS's.

I have another question though. Does anyone know for sure where the Kent boarder finishes and South London starts for the official purposes of offering places at kent GS's..?

I ask this as I wonder if people applying to a Kent GS from inside the M25 and/or in South London (e.g. Orpington, Bromley, Beckenham etc) are classified as Kent, or out of county.

We used to live in Sarf London and used to put Kent as part of our address, although I've been told that this is wrong as it's the London Borough of Bromley...

Any thoughts...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Borders are pretty well-defined. They are marked on the map. Any address "anomalies" are usually historical, e.g. originate from pre-metropolitan Counties era. I understand there is some "wriggle room" in the ruling, such as where a County border is close to a main centre, and those just over border are remote from the next closest schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that Kent County Council's remit in the part of the country stops at the northern boundary of Sevenoaks council - ie Knockholt, Halstead and Badgers Mount. From Pratts Bottom and Downe onwards, including Orpington, are all in Bromley Council. So children from Bromely would be stopped from going to Judd or Skinners for the same reason as children from Sussex/Surrey/Bexley etc.

Of course it operates the other way round, some children from Sevenoaks go to St Olaves for one reason or another. That, presumably, would no longer be allowed on the same basis.

One further point that 'out of county' people may care to bear in mind. Boys from Sevenoaks who pass the eleven plus are currently being offered places in Sittingbourne, a round trip of up to three hours a day for an eleven year old, because in effect places in Judd - 15 minutes away on a train - have been taken by 'out-of-county' people.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:31 am 
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I understand your point about out of county children taking up Kent Grammar places which must be frustrating if you are having children from miles away taking up spaces from kids who live on the doorstep. However, there are also a lot of Kent kids who come over the border to Sussex for the good comprehensives which we have here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:06 am 
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Location: Bexley
In Bexley we have 4 grammars, with many places taken by children from Kent, Bromley, Greenwich etc. Not saying that's wrong, but it cuts both ways.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:15 am 
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Location: East Kent
for information, this "sticky" shows the areas covered by KCC.


viewtopic.php?t=5128

Living right on the coast we don't get many out of county applicants, most of them would be fish!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:15 pm 
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shuff wrote:
I understand your point about out of county children taking up Kent Grammar places which must be frustrating if you are having children from miles away taking up spaces from kids who live on the doorstep. However, there are also a lot of Kent kids who come over the border to Sussex for the good comprehensives which we have here.


As I said earlier the net effect often comes down to local boys who passed the 11 plus being forced into to choosing between being displaced to other schools in places like Sittingbourne, two or three hours travel away, or going to the local non-selective boys' school, Wilderness, which is a challenging learning environment to say the least.

But anyway, if the local comprehensives are so good why don't you send your children to them? The fact that you have good local schools open to everyone undercuts the argument that you need to ship children into another county to secure a 'good' education.

In response to Bexley Mum 2, again I am willing to be corrected, but I think that you'll find that all the Bexley grammars have a sibling/distance factor in the over-subscription criteria. So there may well be children who have a sibling in the school who subsequently moved to Kent and get in on the sibling rule. Or there may well be children who live close to the school but in 'Kent'. Although looking at the map where the Bexley schools are situated that seems pretty unlikely. Judd and Skinners are odd because they apply effectively a first past the post system and will, in theory take you from anywhere in the country.

I have problems with children travelling long distances to school in any event. Attending school is being part of a community and once children get to their teens they want to be out in the evenings or at weekends with their friends.

How can they do that if they live miles and miles away? And what about after school activities? How can they fully participate in the life of the school? I don't think that they can. I think that sending your children to a school a long way away runs the real risk of socially isolating a child - just about the worst thing you can do to a teenager, as far as he/she is concerned anyway.

Finally, once they get to a grammar school they have large amounts of homework. How can they do their homework properly if they are spending hours every day travelling to and from school? Can't see it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:34 pm 
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One of my children does attend the local comprehensive and she is doing very well and we are very pleased with the school (the facilities are far better than most Grammars). I have found over the years that each child is different and has different needs educationally. My eldest daughter would not have thrived at the local school. She is academic and extremely driven, and wouldn't have tolerated being in a mixed school where boys can be disruptive. She manages well with the travelling and homework and has a life outside school. We chose Grammar because it was the right choice for her. My son will hopefully get into Judd or Skinners this September, but again this choice was made because he is in an extremely bad year group of children and I can't wait for him to be apart from them where he can actually learn something without constant interruptions.
I think it is important to keep the borders open, share our education systems so that we can all make the right choices for our children.


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