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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:58 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 408
Hi Guest55 and Mystery

You are both very knowledgeable about maths and I wanted to get an idea from you as whether these are Y4, 5, 6 or 7 level questions. Or even what SATS level they equate to.

PS, I have the Bgham KEGS 11+ Maths section in mind as far as 11+ goes.

EG1 - A school choir has 72 members altogther. The number of girls is 6 more than the number of boys. How many girls are there in the school choir? (FYI, I worked it as 39)

72-6 = 66

66/2 = 33

33+6 = 39

EG2 - Max is 8 years old. His father is 34 years old. In how many years' time will his father's age be three times of Max's age? ((FYI, I worked it as 5)

34-8 = 26

26/2 = 13

13-8 = 5

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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:41 pm

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
Posts: 11952
Hi,

They are what I would cal 'pre-algebra' questions ie some people will want to kae equations but they can be solved logically.

FYI -the first one:
Quote:
A school choir has 72 members altogther. The number of girls is 6 more than the number of boys. How many girls are there in the school choir?

If the numbers were equal there would be 72/2 = 36 of each.
So if we want the difference to be six we add 3 to get 39 - if children play with number they will see why this works. This could be a level 4 question in the KS2 tests.

The second is harder because the concept of age always seems to make children struggle because they forget that both people age!
Quote:
Max is 8 years old. His father is 34 years old. In how many years' time will his father's age be three times of Max's age?

I might start this sort by setting out two columns:

Max ..........Dad
8 .......... 34 ...... now
9 .......... 35
10 ......... 36
11 ......... 37
12 .......... 38
13 .......... 39

We can check at each stage whether it works or not - this is a trial and improvement method ... I'd expect brighter level 5s to get it if set out logically.

Last edited by Guest55 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:56 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 408
Thanks Guest55

I thought they were L3/4 questions as my Y4 8 year old solved them. They are his answers, however, I have shown him different solutions using drawings, but he can't grasp this concept yet.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:14 pm

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
Posts: 11952
The first is more level 4 than level 3 so should be 'do-able' for a bright Year 4 (who might be on track for level 4 at the end of the year)... but these questions are hard to level because the papers don't tend to have much of this.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:21 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 408
Guest55 wrote:
The first is more level 4 than level 3 so should be 'do-able' for a bright Year 4 (who might be on track for level 4 at the end of the year)... but these questions are hard to level because the papers don't tend to have much of this.

Hi Guest55

I search the Internet for off-the-wall maths resources, as I believe that the maths section of the Bgham KEGS 11+ focuses on cognitive abilities, rather than text book maths. I therefore set my DS novel mathematical problems, like the Library A and Library B question that I posted, a fortnight ago.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:34 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
Well I'd say an 8 year old was doing well solving them and of course as they get older their speed and method will chance. I can also see them cropping up as an 11+ question here or there, and like Guest 55 said there's less of this type of thing in SATs papers than I have seen (Guest 55 will have far more knowledge than me about what crops up in primary SATS papers). The challenge in an 11+ type exam would be to do this kind of question quickly, without a panic, and using some additional paper for working. But it does look like the sort of enrichment type question that a school could use to test problem solving from year 3 upwards maybe?

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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:07 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 408
Hi

Can someone give me an idea of age level for this question, please?.

My father, a former second year junior (Year 4) teacher, in the 60s and 70s has passed English and Maths resources to me. The following maths question was for a Year 4 child, but I see it as more a Year 6, 11+ question.

My DS (8.25 years old) got it, only because he saw a couple of similar examples, and because we have managed to slow down his reading so that he can absorb what he has just read:

There are a total of 420 books on the first and second shelves of a bookcase respectively. 60 books from the first shelf are transferred to the second one. 80 books are rearranged from the second shelf to the first one. The number of books on the two shelves becomes the same. How many books are on each shelf of the bookcase at first?

Once again, can someone please give me an idea of age level for this question.?

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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:34 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
Ooh I dunno - over to Guest 55 as he / she is the practising maths teacher.

The maths is simple, but there are a few logical steps that need to be taken for the child to get to the answer themselves unaided. I don't know how to put an "age" on it. Good question though. The wording could be simpler to make it easier for a younger child e.g. 60 books moved from shelf 1 to shelf 2, 40 books moved from shelf 2 to shelf 1 .......... using the word "rearranged" fogs it a bit unnecessarily doesn't it?

All of these questions seem to involve the same kind of logic - that if you take z off one lot of stuff and add z to another lot of stuff you have changed the difference between the two lots of stuff by 2z. I don't know if there is a typical age at which one can "see" this easily.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:51 pm

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
Posts: 11952
Quote:
There are a total of 420 books on the first and second shelves of a bookcase respectively. 60 books from the first shelf are transferred to the second one. 80 books are rearranged from the second shelf to the first one. The number of books on the two shelves becomes the same. How many books are on each shelf of the bookcase at first?

Again another pre-algebra question ...

Lots of methods:

To make them equal you have changed the number by taking 20 from the second (effectively) and adding them to the top - so the shelves had a difference of 40 books originally.

So top was 190 and second 230 - ie split 420 in half which gives 210 and take 20 from that for top and add 20 to that for the second.

There was one a bit like this in the KS2 papers this year ... level 4/5 ish?

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 Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:56 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am
Posts: 408
Hi Guest55

My Y4 son who is 8.5 years did these two questions. Can you advise if they are Year 2, 3 or 4 questions. Or what Sats level do they correlate to. Just need to know if I have to hurry him along.

1. Mr Smith bought 61 bikes. He managed to sell 16 bikes on the first day. Thereafter, he managed to sell 5 bikes every day. How many days, altogether, did it take him to sell the bikes.

2. Mr Cameron had 46 marbles. 4 children shared the marbles equally, and there were 2 marbles left over. What was the number of marbles that each child had.

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