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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:04 am

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:03 pm
Posts: 1413
I know how to get the answers, through a slow, painfully tortured process of deduction . Can anyone help me explain this to a 9 year old?

Also, if book 9-10 is typically aimed at year 5-ers, isn't this subject normally approached in year 6? And what 'SATS level' would this be expected to be pitched at?

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:00 am

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
I think maybe it is just the wording of the question that is not as "user friendly" as it might be.

Would this help the thinking:

Question 33. In a cafe there are n tables - n means the number of tables. Four people sit at each table. How many people are there?

Your son is pretty likely to say 4 times n He needs to know this is written as 4n - no need for the multiplication sign. The Bond verbal reasoning also requires familiarity with this notation

So if we call the number of people P, we now know that P = 4n

Then for the other questions ask him what he would do to n in order to find P, then turn it into a "number sentence" starting P =

It's quite straightforward, and I would have thought level 4 or level 5 if it was made more approachable? G55 would be better on levels than me. Maybe you need to type the quesiton out?

36 is not worded well either. I think if it said that a bag of potatoes cost £P, and I have £4. How much money will I have left after buying the bag of potatoes it would be more obvious. However, there is only one possible answer starting with n = so this is the only possible answer without even thinking about it too much.

Haven't done this paper yet - we've only got up to paper 9. You are clearly storming on! I'll let you know what the reaction is to this question when we get to it.

39 and 40 look superficially harder for a year 4 child I would say.

All these questions are way harder than the QCA year 4 paper b I have seen on the internet.

I do not know if my year 4 DD will do these successfully or not ---- really can't tell. I'll probably tell her I don't think she can do them and then out of contrariness she will do them with ease. I really don't know. Theoretically really one could do them at any kind of high level 3 or level 4 if you thought about it logically, but then there will still be children who could not do this kind of question particularly easily at GCSE.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:20 am

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:03 pm
Posts: 1413
Thanks again, Mystery. The way you explained it is immediately clear, so I'll go through that with DS later this week.

DS did paper 12 last night and got 44/50, which was one of his better scores but the topics were very straightforward and the 2 trickier ones: area and ratio, he didn't get any marks, so I'll be going through those with him tomorrow night.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:34 am

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
I am pretty sure you are hitting against topics that he will not have done much, or if at all, at school. It sounds as though you are doing fine.

When a relative did the Kent test a few years back he was doing this book in the summer between year 5 and year 6. The actual test was then in Jan of year 6. He got 140 in the real test in maths - he didn't do all the GL assessment practice papers (and there were only three then).

I would say that you are really well advanced with the maths. Of course we have a possible change of style in the maths but I would have thought that if you plod on with Bond and mix it up with Schofield and Sims, and bits of something else you should be pretty well prepared for whatever a non- super selective is likely to throw at us.

It's the other stuff that is a bit more how long is a piece of string.

Why he only got 4c at school I really don't know .... that still puzzles me. DD was 4c at beginning of year 4 on a year 4 QCA paper but I am absolutely sure she would not have got 44/50 on the paper you refer to at that point in time.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:48 am

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:03 pm
Posts: 1413
On the paper 10, he got 33/50: some were hard topics for him, again area, and ratio and the equations mentioned, but he also went to pieces on something I would've thought basic, like arranging the numbers in order, so I'm really hoping that was just tiredness Anyway, you've given me a little confidence and, even just talking it through here whilst looking through past papers, I can see clearly that there are areas he's strong on and areas he needs reinforcement in, which feels like some kind of plan!

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:13 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
It's the the best plan! And it's one that can be developed by working closely one to one with a child - much harder in a class. You won't get it from many private tutors either.

It's easier said than done (I am the worst one for snarling in an exasperated tone - "surely you could do this in reception?!") but it's best to assume with your child when they get something wrong in maths that they've never covered it at school or forgotten it.

Then once they've gone over a topic loads of times and you think it's good enough, keep on coming back to it - this is where the Bond papers etc are useful because they keep a lot of topics ticking over simultaneously. Some schools kind of do a topic at a time and never mix them up.

e.g. if your son is weak on area, this is an excellent one for practising multiplication and division as well as problem solving, and maybe even a little algebra. However, our school would just concentrate on calculating simple areas, and maybe even give them calculators. Then a few months later in a Bond paper DD will ask "what's area?", and then at some other point, do some sloppy multiplication and make an error because she hasn't multiplied for months either. They spent a lot of time adding and subtracting recently (year 4).

And ratio / proportion - it's at the heart of so many problems. If you crack that you'll find that he can solve so much more. Get a good text book for this which covers these topics in great depth from easy through to hard in an attractive way.

I meant to say, don't do this business of looking at the scores at the end of the paper all the time. Unless you know that your child is competent in all the topics covered by the questions it is not a meaningful exercise and very dispiriting for you (and possibly the child). I think it's a very poor way of preparing the maths.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:28 pm

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:03 pm
Posts: 1413
mystery wrote:
I meant to say, don't do this business of looking at the scores at the end of the paper all the time. Unless you know that your child is competent in all the topics covered by the questions it is not a meaningful exercise and very dispiriting for you (and possibly the child). I think it's a very poor way of preparing the maths.

You're right; that's what I was doing and that's probably why I wasn't sure what the issues were. It was only when looking through them, discussing them here, that I realised some topics he knew; others he didn't and it actually made me feel better to know he did know somethings well!

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 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:42 am

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:41 am
Posts: 434
Hi FB

Just looked at paper 10 and DD left out the questions you mentioned about number of people sitting at a table. Also the ordering of numbers is more complicated as it involves ordering numbers up to 3 decimal places.

These are both topics we haven't covered so to be honest I explained it quickly but moved on even though DD didn't grasp it fully. Didn't give DD a score for that paper on the basis that there were too many topics we hadn't covered. (Perhaps I'm in denial! )

I do think the value of bond at the moment is to highlight what DD doesn't know, and to practise other topics so she doesn't forget these whilst learning new topics. In the mean time we are trying to tackle ratio - albeit very slowly as there just isn't enough time after school.

If I know DD hasn't done well on a paper - there's no score, I don't even add up the marks. But if she has done well (ie topics we have covered) then I do add up the results. I know it's very selective marking but it works for DD at the moment. I will have to be a bit stricter on marking later but only when I know she 'can' do the work.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:46 am

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
Sounds like a good plan . I also think it is likely that a lot of people push on further with computational methods than 11plus papers require. It is the harder problems that should be required in a selective entry paper rather than tests of arithmetic methods.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:03 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
How did you get on with the algebra questions on a re-run?

My ex- year 4 just did it this morning; she kept on asking "what is n?". When I said it's a mystery number and you've got to work out what to do to n to find P she seemed to "get it" and did those questions with relish (unlike the rest of the paper!). However, if she had been given those cold in a test at school she would have got them all wrong I am sure, and same with quite a few others on that paper.

The family member who I helped years ago who was a year older when he did this paper sailed through it - he didn't have any more "technique" I don't think, but just seemed more "consistent". Mine is very variable from day to day - sloppy even. Today's question "what's a diagonal?". Aaaaagh.

Kent have not awarded the contract yet. So hopefully we'll know tomorrow!

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