Tutoring 11+ Mathematics
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Bexley Mum 2
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Perplexed by name, perplexed by nature
Mike's original question was along the lines of "does one need a PGCE in mathematical education to tutor for the 11+"?
To summarise the debate so far, I think that Mike's answer is NO (and he gives many logical reasons to support his opinion), and Guest 55's answer is YES. Guest 55 also states that you need degree level maths to "prepare a child for the secondary maths curriculum".
Now at this point, I become extremely puzzled. Primary school teachers prepare children for the secondary maths curriculum. Extremely few primary teachers have a maths degree. Should they have one? And if so, should they have a degree in every other national curriculum subject that they cover?
Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is not possible to do a PGCE in mathematical education for primary teaching, this is a secondary school qualification. If you were doing a PGCE in primary education, you could choose a few options to help you if you intended to be a maths subject leader in a primary school during your career, but this is not the same as a PGCE in mathematical education.
So is Guest 55 saying that most primary school teachers are unsuitable 11+ tutors as they do not have a maths degree, nor a PGCE in mathematical education? Also, most secondary school teachers are also unsuitable as they do not hold these two qualification either. And even some secondary teachers with a PGCE in mathematical education would be unsuitable as they do not have maths degrees - they have other degrees with a significant amount of maths.
It would follow that very few people could tutor the 11+, or teach maths in primary school, or tutor KS1 and KS2 maths to those pupils who are unfortunate enough to need a tutor outside school for whatever reason.
It would also follow, that all secondary school teachers should have a degree in the subject that they teach, as why should we single maths out for special treatment. I was taught Physics in the early 80s (when the syllabus content at O'level and A'level was "heavier" than it is now) by a graduate in Electronic Engineering. He was probably one of my best teachers ever, and taught A'level, special level, and Oxbridge entrance papers. Yes there were a couple of questions that we asked him during Oxbridge preparation that he freely admitted that he could not answer because he did not have a physics degree. But there could be clever kids that asked a maths teacher who was a graduate in maths something they could not answer - or that if they could, not in a way that would be relevant or comprehensible to a school child. Anyhow, my physics teacher certainly would not have had a problem tutoring the 11+. And I can think of many other of my secondary school teachers who could have tutored the 11+. The head of music would probably have made the best 11+ tutor.
Or have I misunderstood what you are saying Guest 55?
Guest 55 says that Mike is a business man, and that one can make more money from tutoring than being a maths teacher (and from Guest 55's other descriptions of him/herself it sounds like he / she is head of maths in a secondary school so presumably has the facts to make a good financial comparison between tutoring and teaching).
I would love to see the answer to the following maths problem (open to anyone who can answer, not just maths graduates with PGCE in maths):
a)What is the average take home pay of a head of maths?
b)How much would a self-employed tutor have to pay into a private pension scheme to guarantee him/herself the same pension as a teacher with a final salary pension scheme?
c)Taking income tax, NIC, and all the costs of running a tutoring business into account, how many hours per week, at let's say an hourly rate of £20, would the tutor have to work to have the same "take home pay" and pension benefits as the Head of Maths?
d)Bearing in mind that most pupils will only attend after school, during term-time, is it possible to work this number of hours?
e)Assuming that each pupil attends for an average of 1 year, how many new pupils would you have to attract each year?
I genuinely would like to know the answer to this, as I am considering it, but have never thought that tutoring could offer the same financial benefits as going back into school.
Please continue the debate. I do hope some other people will respond.
Mike's original question was along the lines of "does one need a PGCE in mathematical education to tutor for the 11+"?
To summarise the debate so far, I think that Mike's answer is NO (and he gives many logical reasons to support his opinion), and Guest 55's answer is YES. Guest 55 also states that you need degree level maths to "prepare a child for the secondary maths curriculum".
Now at this point, I become extremely puzzled. Primary school teachers prepare children for the secondary maths curriculum. Extremely few primary teachers have a maths degree. Should they have one? And if so, should they have a degree in every other national curriculum subject that they cover?
Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is not possible to do a PGCE in mathematical education for primary teaching, this is a secondary school qualification. If you were doing a PGCE in primary education, you could choose a few options to help you if you intended to be a maths subject leader in a primary school during your career, but this is not the same as a PGCE in mathematical education.
So is Guest 55 saying that most primary school teachers are unsuitable 11+ tutors as they do not have a maths degree, nor a PGCE in mathematical education? Also, most secondary school teachers are also unsuitable as they do not hold these two qualification either. And even some secondary teachers with a PGCE in mathematical education would be unsuitable as they do not have maths degrees - they have other degrees with a significant amount of maths.
It would follow that very few people could tutor the 11+, or teach maths in primary school, or tutor KS1 and KS2 maths to those pupils who are unfortunate enough to need a tutor outside school for whatever reason.
It would also follow, that all secondary school teachers should have a degree in the subject that they teach, as why should we single maths out for special treatment. I was taught Physics in the early 80s (when the syllabus content at O'level and A'level was "heavier" than it is now) by a graduate in Electronic Engineering. He was probably one of my best teachers ever, and taught A'level, special level, and Oxbridge entrance papers. Yes there were a couple of questions that we asked him during Oxbridge preparation that he freely admitted that he could not answer because he did not have a physics degree. But there could be clever kids that asked a maths teacher who was a graduate in maths something they could not answer - or that if they could, not in a way that would be relevant or comprehensible to a school child. Anyhow, my physics teacher certainly would not have had a problem tutoring the 11+. And I can think of many other of my secondary school teachers who could have tutored the 11+. The head of music would probably have made the best 11+ tutor.
Or have I misunderstood what you are saying Guest 55?
Guest 55 says that Mike is a business man, and that one can make more money from tutoring than being a maths teacher (and from Guest 55's other descriptions of him/herself it sounds like he / she is head of maths in a secondary school so presumably has the facts to make a good financial comparison between tutoring and teaching).
I would love to see the answer to the following maths problem (open to anyone who can answer, not just maths graduates with PGCE in maths):
a)What is the average take home pay of a head of maths?
b)How much would a self-employed tutor have to pay into a private pension scheme to guarantee him/herself the same pension as a teacher with a final salary pension scheme?
c)Taking income tax, NIC, and all the costs of running a tutoring business into account, how many hours per week, at let's say an hourly rate of £20, would the tutor have to work to have the same "take home pay" and pension benefits as the Head of Maths?
d)Bearing in mind that most pupils will only attend after school, during term-time, is it possible to work this number of hours?
e)Assuming that each pupil attends for an average of 1 year, how many new pupils would you have to attract each year?
I genuinely would like to know the answer to this, as I am considering it, but have never thought that tutoring could offer the same financial benefits as going back into school.
Please continue the debate. I do hope some other people will respond.
What a lot of questions!
Yes I do think ALL secondary teachers should have a degree in the subject they teach - this used to be common practice but the failure of teacher's pay to keep pace with inflation has meant many people with degrees (especially in science snd maths) look elsewhere.
You can train for Primary education after a degree - I am trained to teach in both sectors.
My point is that tutors are seeming, from my experience, to give children 'short cut' methods that will impede their progression in Secondary schools. Hence my comment that they need to know the pedagogy -
Salary of a HOD? Depends how long they have been teaching and whether they are on the Upper pay spine (gone throught threshold - a process to show you are doing the job well after about 10 years in the classroom) - TLR payments (for being HOD) also very from school to school - a typical HOD might earn £34000 outside London.
Tutors earn at least £30 an hour and some I know of have groups of 10 at a time - so that's £300 an hour income. You don't need to do many sums to see even a few hours a week bring in a lot .. you can easily fit supply teaching or a part-time post around this with far less hassle than a HOD!
I know I haven't answered all the questions but I've got work to do preparing revision days for the rest of the holiday - and I don't get paid any extra for that - now if I was tutoring 3 x 6 hours = 18 hours
20 children at £30 per hour ... hmmmm
Yes I do think ALL secondary teachers should have a degree in the subject they teach - this used to be common practice but the failure of teacher's pay to keep pace with inflation has meant many people with degrees (especially in science snd maths) look elsewhere.
You can train for Primary education after a degree - I am trained to teach in both sectors.
My point is that tutors are seeming, from my experience, to give children 'short cut' methods that will impede their progression in Secondary schools. Hence my comment that they need to know the pedagogy -
Salary of a HOD? Depends how long they have been teaching and whether they are on the Upper pay spine (gone throught threshold - a process to show you are doing the job well after about 10 years in the classroom) - TLR payments (for being HOD) also very from school to school - a typical HOD might earn £34000 outside London.
Tutors earn at least £30 an hour and some I know of have groups of 10 at a time - so that's £300 an hour income. You don't need to do many sums to see even a few hours a week bring in a lot .. you can easily fit supply teaching or a part-time post around this with far less hassle than a HOD!
I know I haven't answered all the questions but I've got work to do preparing revision days for the rest of the holiday - and I don't get paid any extra for that - now if I was tutoring 3 x 6 hours = 18 hours
20 children at £30 per hour ... hmmmm
I'd like to add to this debate and it's a point re tutors.
I live in Birmingham and have not heard of any tutors charging £30 an hour. One I know of charges £20 for a 2 hour session. He has successes incl. children entering the sought after KE Foundation schools. Another centre which my son attends charges £22 for 1 hour and 20 mins sessions. My son loves it here and thoroughly enjoys his sessions. They are also successful in getting children into grammar schools. They have a teacher and teaching assistant for every group of 4 or 5 children.
My daughter is with another tutor who charges £12.50 an hour! She teaches small groups of 4 or less for a 2 hour session once a week. She has an unblemished record in grammar sch. entrance successes. She holds an Oxbridge PHD in English but tutors maths perfectly well and gives the children a thorough explanation of the subject/concept being taught.
I would like to thank Tracy and Guest 55 for replying to my earlier post about improving my daughter's concentration. I and her tutor have told her repeatedly to estimate an ans. so she knows if she's on the right lines. Sometimes this works and sometimes not.... seems to depend on her mood.
I live in Birmingham and have not heard of any tutors charging £30 an hour. One I know of charges £20 for a 2 hour session. He has successes incl. children entering the sought after KE Foundation schools. Another centre which my son attends charges £22 for 1 hour and 20 mins sessions. My son loves it here and thoroughly enjoys his sessions. They are also successful in getting children into grammar schools. They have a teacher and teaching assistant for every group of 4 or 5 children.
My daughter is with another tutor who charges £12.50 an hour! She teaches small groups of 4 or less for a 2 hour session once a week. She has an unblemished record in grammar sch. entrance successes. She holds an Oxbridge PHD in English but tutors maths perfectly well and gives the children a thorough explanation of the subject/concept being taught.
I would like to thank Tracy and Guest 55 for replying to my earlier post about improving my daughter's concentration. I and her tutor have told her repeatedly to estimate an ans. so she knows if she's on the right lines. Sometimes this works and sometimes not.... seems to depend on her mood.
OK so let's compare a Head of Department outside London on £34,000 per annum plus final salary pension, with an 11+ tutor in an area where they could get £20 per hour ------ possibly higher than average looking right acruoss the UK.
To get the equivalent pre-tax earnings, and assuming that it was one pupil at a time ( a safe guess on which to base one's business plan), one would have to tutor for 1700 hours to achieve the same gross earnings.
Let's make another safe assumption that you live in an area where most parents want 1 hour a week during term-time only. And let's assume that there are 39 weeks in the school year. One would have to tutor 43 hours per week (and this excludes preparation and marking time) to achieve 1700 hours per year. This is not possible with primary school children as athey are probably only going to want sessions between 4pm and 8pm on weekdays ( equals 20 hours per week) and let's say one added in all day Saturday and Sunday, one could bump it up to 36 tutoring hours a week. Still well short of 43 hours per week.
Also, this does not take into account that the school teacher (both in the state and private sector) is getting a final salary pension scheme with considerable contributions by the employer. There are also other costs associated with a tutoring business which one would not incur as a paid school employee.
So I still remain unsure that the tutor "business-man" (as you called Mike) is doing it for the money, and that all school teachers are doing it as a vocation with the money as an afterthought and are missing out on a lucrative tutoring afterthought.
Depending on where one lived, attracting on average 36 to 43 new pupils per annum (assuming each child averages one hour per week for a year) could be a struggle too.
I am sure there are a few small pockets of the country where one could pile in zillions of tutees in to a group learning situation, and charge well over the hourly average rate, but I am sure this is not the norm.
To get the equivalent pre-tax earnings, and assuming that it was one pupil at a time ( a safe guess on which to base one's business plan), one would have to tutor for 1700 hours to achieve the same gross earnings.
Let's make another safe assumption that you live in an area where most parents want 1 hour a week during term-time only. And let's assume that there are 39 weeks in the school year. One would have to tutor 43 hours per week (and this excludes preparation and marking time) to achieve 1700 hours per year. This is not possible with primary school children as athey are probably only going to want sessions between 4pm and 8pm on weekdays ( equals 20 hours per week) and let's say one added in all day Saturday and Sunday, one could bump it up to 36 tutoring hours a week. Still well short of 43 hours per week.
Also, this does not take into account that the school teacher (both in the state and private sector) is getting a final salary pension scheme with considerable contributions by the employer. There are also other costs associated with a tutoring business which one would not incur as a paid school employee.
So I still remain unsure that the tutor "business-man" (as you called Mike) is doing it for the money, and that all school teachers are doing it as a vocation with the money as an afterthought and are missing out on a lucrative tutoring afterthought.
Depending on where one lived, attracting on average 36 to 43 new pupils per annum (assuming each child averages one hour per week for a year) could be a struggle too.
I am sure there are a few small pockets of the country where one could pile in zillions of tutees in to a group learning situation, and charge well over the hourly average rate, but I am sure this is not the norm.
Very few 11+ tutors tutor 1-1 and they charge more if they do - of course there is also GCSE and AS/A2 and a bit of supply to factor in.
OK after 40 years teaching I'll get a pension of £17 000 or so - contributions are taken from my salary to cover this - have you seen the average life expectancy of a teacher after retirement? Currently it's about 18 months ..
Yes, I do think most people come into teaching to share their love of learning and improve children's life chances -
OK after 40 years teaching I'll get a pension of £17 000 or so - contributions are taken from my salary to cover this - have you seen the average life expectancy of a teacher after retirement? Currently it's about 18 months ..
Yes, I do think most people come into teaching to share their love of learning and improve children's life chances -
