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 Post subject: 11+ nightmare
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:07 pm
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Hi
Our 11+results didn't come over the weekend, Monday morning and a trip to our primary school, again they wouldn't reveal the results, after being passed from primary to grammar school, grammar eventually told us our child had failed by 5 points, I then had to return to primary to tell our child their result and leave them there very upset, the staff seemed unaffected.
This result was after a recommendation by our primary school, we were told by grammar that the standardization rules had affected the marks, but won't disclose these rules in detail. This is not a poor looser story, but one of disgust of how the schools close ranks and have total disregard for children's feelings. The latest "playground gossip" is that the results were messed up and had to be recalculated, what a farce!
Is there anyone else in this situation in Lincolnshire?
Ps Are we entitled to view our "raw scores" and the primary schools recommendation in detail, up to now school staff seem very reluctant to even speak to us.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Location: Lincolnshire
Hello Albeck,

I have never heard of anyone getting given their raw scores as such. However, if you go to appeal some schools give you the option of seeing the actual papers so you would get to know that way. However, the standardisation process is a long-established, tried and tested means of dealing with the results so I do not think there would be much mileage in raising this as an issue (unless, of course, you have any evidence that the whole process was bungled this year!).

The non-statutory head-teacher's appeals are conducted behind closed doors and are decided by the grammar school's governors. If you go to a formal appeal you will be given some details of the primary school's submission for this non-statutory appeal and brief details of why it did not succeed (these seem to be supplied as a matter of course for Local authority arranged appeals but may have to be requested for Foundation School arranged appeals).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:59 pm 
I was also told by our Head that there was a problem with the standardization scores and that they had to be recalculated, although it didn't adversely affect anyone at our school - their scores all went up, apparently.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:06 pm 
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Alex wrote:
Hello Albeck,

I have never heard of anyone getting given their raw scores as such. However, if you go to appeal some schools give you the option of seeing the actual papers so you would get to know that way. However, the standardisation process is a long-established, tried and tested means of dealing with the results so I do not think there would be much mileage in raising this as an issue (unless, of course, you have any evidence that the whole process was bungled this year!).

The non-statutory head-teacher's appeals are conducted behind closed doors and are decided by the grammar school's governors. If you go to a formal appeal you will be given some details of the primary school's submission for this non-statutory appeal and brief details of why it did not succeed (these seem to be supplied as a matter of course for Local authority arranged appeals but may have to be requested for Foundation School arranged appeals).

Hi Alex
Thanks for your reply, yes I guess the only way to obtain anymore information would be to appeal in March. It's easy to start thinking all kinds of things when emotions are running high, and I fully accept that if a child doesn't make the grade thats one of life's realities. However I do feel that the system has it's flaws and the sooner these are addressed the better, if there has been a mistake with the marking, I think the schools in question should come clean and practice what they preach, maybe then confidence could be restored in the grammar school system and the vail of secrecy lifted. Cheers Alan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:17 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
I was also told by our Head that there was a problem with the standardization scores and that they had to be recalculated, although it didn't adversely affect anyone at our school - their scores all went up, apparently.

Hi
Mistakes do happen, but to cover them up is another matter. If your scores went up that's great in your case, it's quite apparent to me that there has been a problem with my child's results, the head teacher of our primary school will not give me the raw results, we were the last to hear the results and the circumstances they were given in terrible and totally unprofessional.
I intend to fight this all the way. It may be that it's not any particular persons
fault but the system cocked up big time.
Alan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm
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Location: Lincolnshire
If there was a mess up with standardisation and the marks all had to be recalculated then it might be reasonable to raise this at appeal in order to seek reassurance that the marks were calculated accurately in the end. You would have to ask for the information well in advance of the appeal date and (unless you are a fairly good mathematician) you would probably need someone to help you understand the figures.

KenR got the standardisation information for the Birmingham schools a year or two ago - you can find it somewhere on this site - but I am afraid that I found it very hard to get to grips with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:18 pm 
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Alex wrote:
If there was a mess up with standardisation and the marks all had to be recalculated then it might be reasonable to raise this at appeal in order to seek reassurance that the marks were calculated accurately in the end. You would have to ask for the information well in advance of the appeal date and (unless you are a fairly good mathematician) you would probably need someone to help you understand the figures.

KenR got the standardisation information for the Birmingham schools a year or two ago - you can find it somewhere on this site - but I am afraid that I found it very hard to get to grips with.

Hi Alex
I have no solid evidence of this, it's just "playground gossip" which I would rather not of heard about. However there are others factors involved not previously mentioned. we received a letter from grammar well before the summer holidays stating that they had supplied the primary school with 2 practice papers for use before the summer holidays. These practice papers were not implemented until the weeks of the actual exam. These are the dates nvr practice paper 19-09-07 exam 24-09-07 - vr practice paper 13-09-07 exam 17-09-07 the children were left to mark their own practice papers in between taking the exam, many of the children had incorrectly marked their papers some had given themselves higher marks and others too few. this caused a major upset and emotions were running high, children were crying and were generally over-tired.
Had the primary head taken the grammars advice and used these test papers before the summer holidays, I think the exam would have been much more relaxed. Most the primary school staff are against the 11+ the head has clearly stated to me this week that he makes no provision for the 11+ and is not required to do so. I feel there may be some cause for mitigating circumstances somewhere in this mess but it's getting overcomplicated. Alan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:34 am 
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Hi there

Just to let you know the sort of system you are dealing with.

My son failed by 4 points because his head gave him the wrong paper - he sat it on his own a week later and was very distressed. He has special needs and was not given any extra time or warned that he would have to re sit it.

The Head wrote a heart -rendering appeal with all academic back-up, admitting her mistake. Poor thing!!

THe panel said no. The panel said we would have to appeal in full. The panel would not give any reasons for their decision. Said they would give reasons after all places were allocate.

Makes you wonder if one little boy with special needs has been sicriminated against doesn't it? Best of it is he has no behavioural problems and is describd as a delight to teacher by ever teacher. Still, he does have "special needs".


I am not going to appeal. I am not wasting my time. Yesterday we looked around some excellent comps - some with far far better facilities than grammers. THe results weren't that far off either.

We have made our choices now and thank god I am not putting my son through such a system. (By the way, my hubby and I went to good comps and we both have excellent qualifications). It is not the end of the world.You never know, your kids might just meet some far more interesting people at the comp and become much more well-rounded youngsters!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:07 pm
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JIMBO wrote:
Hi there

Just to let you know the sort of system you are dealing with.

My son failed by 4 points because his head gave him the wrong paper - he sat it on his own a week later and was very distressed. He has special needs and was not given any extra time or warned that he would have to re sit it.

The Head wrote a heart -rendering appeal with all academic back-up, admitting her mistake. Poor thing!!

THe panel said no. The panel said we would have to appeal in full. The panel would not give any reasons for their decision. Said they would give reasons after all places were allocate.

Makes you wonder if one little boy with special needs has been sicriminated against doesn't it? Best of it is he has no behavioural problems and is describd as a delight to teacher by ever teacher. Still, he does have "special needs".


I am not going to appeal. I am not wasting my time. Yesterday we looked around some excellent comps - some with far far better facilities than grammers. THe results weren't that far off either.

We have made our choices now and thank god I am not putting my son through such a system. (By the way, my hubby and I went to good comps and we both have excellent qualifications). It is not the end of the world.You never know, your kids might just meet some far more interesting people at the comp and become much more well-rounded youngsters!!!
Hi
Really it depends on how set your child is about going to grammar, every system on the planet has it's flaws, however not everyone admits to them!
Our child wants us to appeal, and that in the end is enough reason to take the system on, win or loose it's your principles that matter. Alan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm
Posts: 1068
Location: Lincolnshire
Hello Alan,

There seems to be a wide variation in primary schools' attitude to the 11 plus. I also wonder just how specific the instructions which are given to them by the GS's may be. There is definitely a problem when out of area primary schools which are not used to administering the tests are involved - thus poor Jimbo's school mistaking a practice paper for the real thing; my own daughter was in a similar position a few years ago and her school was originally planning to give her both practice papers and both exam papers all on the same day. In area primaries appear to treat the practices in different ways - some merely administer them to the kids then mark them with no further input; others, when they mark them go through the questions explaining why the correct answer is as it is.

If your particular primary is very anti 11 plus, your problem may be getting them to support you strongly enough for the appeal. In appeals for community schools a standard form is sent to the primary to fill in which covers most of the points about academic evidence and mitigating circumstances; some foundation schools have their own version, yet others rely on the primary to send whatever evidence they think is required. Appeals panels are looking for strong alternative evidence of academic ability so the primary report is crucial.

As for the practice test arrangements as mitigating circumstances - it may be worth a passing mention if your child was personally upset or confused by the way it was done, but it is not going to go far in itself as a reason for underperformance.

Best wishes


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