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 Post subject: The NVR/VR debate
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:22 pm 
This is a fascinating forum - in a way I'm glad I didn't find it before my daughter took the 11+ (and even more before she got her [pass] result)!

When we attended the briefing that our primary school had for the 11+ we were informed quite categorically that the idea of introducing the system of NVR was intended to get more boys to pass. This concerned me slightly as my daughter is a girl! However, in the four pairs of practice papers we got from WHSmith (Nfer) she consistently performed better in NVR than VR. Her VR scores were consistently in the low 70s whilst her NVR scores were always over 90%. Funnily enough after a disasterous first practice paper her scores remained virtually identical in the other papers.

Does anyone actually know if the system has favoured boys? From the results at her primary it seems that around two thirds of the passes have been girls.

Oh, also, unrelated to this, anyone know how many 'in area' passes there have been for QEGS in Horncastle?

David


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:20 pm 
Very interesting question.
My son's primary school had twice as many girls passing as boys.
The same proportion as your daughters primary.
All of my sons friends found the non verbal reasoning easier than the verbal, and yet none of them passed. My own son thought he did much better in the NVR paper than the VR paper and yet got roughly the same score on both.

I am completely dumbfounded :oops:

Deb


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:20 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Lincolnshire
I can only give you the information from my son's school which is that only 3 boys sat the test, 2 of which passed. 6 girls sat the test, 1 of which passed.

The school in general is not known for its high pass rate, however this is still much lower than in previous years.

angelz


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Posts: 2660
Dear All

For your information.....

http://www.nfer.ac.uk/research-areas/as ... -tests.cfm

It was discussed in Bucks, some time ago, whether we should change to NVR......because too many children, with English as a second language, were not getting through to the grammars.....due to their 'poorer' vocabulary.....within a couple of years it became obvious that many of those children should have been in a grammar school.

We have not changed over, I do not know the reason why.

An interesting debate.

Patricia


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1647
Location: berkshire
I am absolutely sure that if my son had just taken VR as the grammar selection test he would of failed miserably.
Luckily 'Slough' use VR, NVR and Maths the results are added together then divided by 3 to get an average over the 3 papers.
He scraped in with high NVR & Maths but v. low VR. After 1/2 a term he is getting good comments in most subjects....... English being his weakest.
If he had just been able to take VR (as in Bucks) he would not have seemed to be a grammar school candidate.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:09 pm 
It really would be interesting to know if the changeover in Lincs to including NVR has actually changed the profile of those who pass. It is a shame that noone seems to publish any studies with the facts and figures and any analysis of the way the selective system works here. I guess that (assuming there are equal numbers of boys and girls in the population) in those areas which have mixed Grammar schools the balance in numbers of boys and girls would reflect the differences in numbers who get through.

However there are obviously demographic "blips" from time to time. I know that the girls' grammar in Sleaford took in an extra class of 30 above its PAN this September as such large numbers had passed, whereas the boys' Grammar in Sleaford was actually undersubscribed (but had been very oversubscribed the year before).

It would be interesting to know whether there are any studies from other areas which give any indication a to whether VR and NVR tend to favour one sex or the other and whether there is usually a fairly high correlation between scores on each or not.

Sara


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:34 pm 
Another thing I would really like to know is whether there is any correlation whatsoever between a child's scores in the 11plus and how well they do subsequently at KS3 and at GCSE. Are they genuinely good predictors or not?

Sara


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Posts: 2660
Dear Sara

The following link may be of some interest.......I posted sometime back in the 11 plus exams section.....

viewtopic.php?t=477

Patricia


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:32 pm 
Thank you Patricia - it was interesting reading even though the statistical tables are indeed a bit hard to take in!

It is interesting particularly that boys tend to gain Grammar School entry in fewer numbers than girls - it is understandable then that some areas are looking for ways which might even this out a bit - but the question still remains as to whether NVR does really help the boys as Lincs schools seem to have hoped.

Also the tendency for high ability poorer children not to gain places so much. I suppose the only really fair system of testing would be one for which it was totally impossible to tutor and for which no applied language skills were needed...pretty hard to achieve! The proposal in the consultation admissions document to allow transport costs for 3 schools between 2 and 6 miles away may help a little (but probably not much in large rural counties with sparse population like Lincs).

Sara


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:01 pm 
Wow! There certainly is some fascinating stuff out there - thanks for all the interesting replies. I presumed that the NVR tests had been tested on boys and girls and it had been proven that boys could do better at this.

The affluent/not so affluent issue is quite a topic in itself. At my daughters school it certainly is the case that the better off parents' children seem to have 'got through' although it's also true that the better off parents themselves tended to go to grammar. A sort of vicious circle really.

And the bus issue... we had factored in that we'd be paying £600 per year in bus fares for her to go to the secondary modern school of her choice (7 miles away, rather than 4 miles for the 'local' school). But because she's passed we get the bus fare free, even though the grammar is very close to the secondary modern. So she'll be going to school on the same bus as her friends (who live on the same estate) but they have to pay. This seems to inhibit choice because £600 is a large amount of money.

David


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