What about local children?!!

[workerbee]

I agree with your comments Catseye... my own view is surely radius is the best method to determine locality to a school. Postcode maps just don't work for me, the are such a crude method for judging a child'd opportunity. Might i say as well if ABGS did move to the 8 mile boundary such as the girls school, perhaps more boys from WA14 and WA15 would get in anyway and surely we would all support this common sense method. I too remember over half my Trafford based primary school sending children to the Grammars. I don't believe the biggest effort a child should make in his or her academic day is to get to and from School. It really is a National debate so if parents from miles away look on enviously at the Grammar schools then they should enter the debate and inform their MP's of their wishes.

[Moodelay]

12

[timpmum]

By local children I mean Trafford children whose only option if not passing (due to the entrance scores being inflated higher and higher by private schooled and tutored children from out of area) is to attend a high school which has most of the high achievers 'selected out' by grammar schools, whereas out of area children, eg Stockport have the choice of sitting grammar entrance exam but can also go to some ( very good) local high schools which don't have the cohort affected by grammar schools, and have excellent A level options easily accessible we can't choose that option!

the Grammars shouldn't 'want the cream of the crop' the Grammars should be wanting to ensure education for local ( ie Trafford) children.

My DC are both bright, DS who just got into grammar got a string of A and A* at GCSE and is expected AAB at all science and maths A levels ( places offered at russell group unis) but she wasn't tutored and only just made it into Loreto and was way off SGS and AGGS- clearly the entrance exams didn't identify her potential due to huge numbers artificially inflating the pass mark. DS just missed all grammars- doing very well in high school ( luckily cathment for WS) , predicted GCSE similar to DS- again missed by entrance exams but we are now in a situation where, because the area is selective he will have to hope for a place at a grammar sixth form or travel outside Trafford to get a chance to achieve as well as his sister at A'Level, as Trafford A'level provision has traditionally been grammar only and high schools/local college not caught up yet with the best will in the world.

As others commented also, when I went to grammar some 30 years ago half my class got a place ( and that was from one of the worst performing primary schools in Altrincham area) my children attended a much better performing local primary and I would say only 3 or 4 out of 33 passed for SGS / AGGS- very clearly local children are let down by the system as it stands.



Not attacking OOC parents, just the system which forces children down a pressured, tutoring route

[workerbee]

I read the last post with interest! You say local children i.e. (Trafford Children.) I don't understand why Trafford Children some of who live 6 or 7 miles away should be considered above non Trafford Children who live only 3 miles away. If the Non Selected schools aren't good enough for you then i agree that's an issue, but not one you should solve by cramming the Grammars schools full of Trafford kids only !!! I have come across the feeling that Trafford residents believe the Grammars should be left only for them, I strongly disagree...

The Grammars should want the best, they should want classes full of equal ability bright kids who can take the curriculum at pace...otherwise why would we want to send our bright kids to them...it was always this way.

[timpmum]

I say Trafford children because as already mentioned the alternative is non-selectives with skewed intakes- however good the school is ( and my DS high school is great) the cohort is affected and as mentioned the sixth form access and provision those not already in grammar is affected. Those 3 miles away but not in Trafford can access non skewed high schools and 6th form provision.

The Grammar schools remain in Trafford because Trafford residents have fought for them and voted for them to remain whilst other areas have not.

your argument would mean children from the whole country should have equal access

The grammars coped perfectly well when they had a broader spectrum of bright local children, and indeed the catholic grammars which have a broader intake do very well.

Grammars were not there for the 'uber clever' or those that were tutored or prepped, but to provide the best for bright children. My children didnt actually pass for SGS/ABS or AGGS but have got or are predicted a/a* across the board- does this men they aren't good enough for grammar

[workerbee]

I totally understand your point Trafford schools for Trafford residents.! Why is it then Trafford school kids are being bused in high volumes into Lymm High School. You want everything! access to Grammars for the very brightest (as long as they are from Trafford postcodes) and entry into the best Non Selective high schools (in Trafford or out) so children who didn't get into the grammar schools can get a great education.

This means that residents of Warrington and the surrounding areas don't get access to their High Schools because of all the kids from Trafford. Its all a balance and we all want whats best for our kids, However I hope i have shown that Out of catchment areas such as Lymm are affected just as badly as in Trafford.

[CarpeDiem]

I totally understand your point Trafford schools for Trafford residents.! Why is it then Trafford school kids are being bused in high volumes into Lymm High School. You want everything! access to Grammars for the very brightest (as long as they are from Trafford postcodes) and entry into the best Non Selective high schools (in Trafford or out) so children who didn't get into the grammar schools can get a great education. 

Knutsford Academy is also full of children bused in from Trafford although on the whole most people are happy with this arrangement as no local children miss out on a place. It also offers the option to Trafford residents who dont want their children to go to a school where the top percentage of ability has been creamed off as it is truly comprehensive covering all abilities. Conversely only a very small percentage go from the Knutsford locality to the Trafford Grammars.

By local children I mean Trafford children whose only option if not passing (due to the entrance scores being inflated higher and higher by private schooled and tutored children from out of area) is to attend a high school which has most of the high achievers 'selected out' by grammar schools, 

so in answer to this Trafford kids do have an option outside of Trafford by attending Lymm or Knutsford.

I hope Agsb decides to follow aggs and just do an 8 mile catchment as it seems much fairer. But in my personal opinion the main fault with the system is that genuinely bright children miss out on places because the selection process is so flawed and the percentage of prep school children is so high because of the skills they have learnt to get them through these tests.

[workerbee]

That's another really good example of cooperation and accommodation by two different localities. I don't know the maths but i suspect that Trafford ships more students out than they take in. I would hate for Trafford to restrict the Grammars to Trafford students only as was suggested only a few posts ago as it would be a backward step in this cooperation.

JUST SUPPOSE:

Trafford decided to take only its own students, yes more would get into the Grammars but results would suffer (myself a graduate circa 1990 and many A level grades were C's and across a number of pupils). The remainder would go to Trafford based High schools clearly not something that is wanted by all as current evidence would indicate. As Knutsford and Lymm and other localities didn't get access to the Grammars their local High schools would fill up with their local kids not leaving room for anyone from outside their boroughs. With this protectionist thinking , the brightest from outside Trafford would lose their opportunity, and the Non Grammar candidates from Trafford would lose the opportunity to be educated outside Trafford should they wish it.

As you can see the Grammars purely for Trafford for me doesn't work, and I was born, brought up and fully educated within its boundaries..I am a fully paid up member of the club. We need a balance so every kid regardless of ability can shoot for what suits them, gives them the best chance and will make them happy. For some it will be the Grammars, for some it will be Trafford High Schools, and for others an academy like Lymm or Knutsford would see them excel. We shouldn't try to protect any school for a resident of a particular postcode, for the Grammars set the bench mark high and those that can will (protection enough). Radius from the school is the only true measure of local and ABGS need to realise this. As for the rest well it seems to work for everyone so leave it be.

[hermanmunster]

It can be quite hard for people when they see others coming from what they consider to be "not the area" and attending schools (whatever type of school they are).

The problem is that boundaries are artificial, funding is essentially from central government and like other public services where you live shouldn't matter when it comes to use the service. One local GS changed from a score based admission for out of catchment (which was quite different from the LEA / county / borough) to a distance based as some kids were travelling just far too far on a daily basis.

[TIDDLYMUM]

A very interesting debate and as an OOC parent with a child at a Trafford Grammar, I'm very impressed with the respectful and non- aggressive debate on this thread. Its a heated and sensitive subject and I can definitely see both sides.