11+ tests content and timing

Advice on 11 Plus VR papers and problems

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Guest

Post by Guest »

patricia wrote:Dear Guest

Well done to your son.....out of interest what part of the country do you come from.?....what did the 11 plus consist of?

I post, in the main, for Buckinghamshire.......and will stand by my thoughts.....I find it hard to believe that a child can pass the 11 plus [ in Bucks ] without some form of tutoring/coaching.......whether by the parents or by buying someone in.

Goodluck to your daughter.

Patricia
And that would prove the theory that it is not a child who is bright that passes, but one who has been taught to pass.
And that stinks!
Caroline

Post by Caroline »

Guest

We know already about the 11+ because results in Bucks were announced on 2nd December.

I promise you that I am not complaining - we made a choice to do all we could to send our kids to private school. My only aim by posting was to make it clear that we are not well-off in the way that most people think of prep school parents as being. It is a stereotype, and there are many people on this forum who seem to fall back on it when arguing the supposed unfairness of the 11+ system.

Our prep school's 11+ pass rate is no higher than many of the state schools and less than that in quite a few.

Caroline
Guest

Post by Guest »

Oh come on, you lot. If it is that easy to pass the 11+ through tutoring, why are NFER bothering with these tests? They must have SOME evidence that they test natural ability. True you may get the odd child who slips through because of tutoring, but a child needs to have some natural ability otherwise it is impossible to get them to understand the requirements of the 11+.

As for bickering about whether you are rich or not. It is just a question of what you are prepared to spend your money on. If you have to remortgage your house to pay school fees, then you are lucky you have a house to remortgage. Is it so bad that your child will have to mix with the riff raff at the local comp. No, he won't be eaten alive - the children there are just children - someone else's pride and joy. I get heartily sick of hearing people talking about children at comprehensives as if they are wild animals. They are not.
Ami

Post by Ami »

Dear anonymous Guest,

Nfer tests are utlised probably because there has to be some benchmark or criteria for entry into the schools; not because this is the holy grail of entrance exams.

As for the tests themselves children can be coached by rote to process individual question types to the point that they often answer questions without much application of the grey stuff, i.e. they tackle the questions systematically with speed (e.g. code breaking, missing letters etc).

A clear indication that children can be coached is in the history of 11 plus, verbal reasoning for instance. It used to be 50 questions in 50 minutes, then 75 questions, then 80 questions and now 100 questions in 45 minutes in parts of the UK! The children sitting the 11 plus are not brighter than those attempting the same exams 10 - 20 years ago; however what has changed is the preparation (professional coaching) and information (such as this website) that has raised the bar for everyone. I would therefore support the hypothesis that the children of any ability can be coached through the 11 plus as long as you start early enough (9 months to a year).

Ami
patricia
Posts: 2803
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:07 pm

Post by patricia »

Dear Ami

I agree with guest above you re children needing a certain amount of grey matter.

The hypothesis that you can teach any ability to pass the 11 plus is totally incorrect. Most children of just above average/bright can be coached/tutored.

Children of aveage/below average could not pass a verbal reasoning/nvr/maths, in the time allocated, you do need a certain amount of ability.

Yes codes can easily be mastered, but not the mathematical content and 'old fashioned' vocabulary

I agree that the bench mark has changed due to professional tutoring/parental coaching. But you cannot teach any child of any ability to pass the 11 plus.

Patrica
Last edited by patricia on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Ami - do you teach children? Codes, filling in missing letters, etc, etc are very difficult to some children - indeed many adults find these types of questions hard. If you could coach children of any ability to pass these tests, then NFER (which is a well established research institute, not just a tuppenny ha'penny outfit) must be barking up the wrong tree. It is easy when you have a bright child to think that all children are like that - they are not - I promise.

I stand by what I said, some children may slip through because of coaching, but I do not believe that a tutor can make that much difference in one hour a week. They can help a bright child to pass a test through practice and technique, but cannot make a "silk purse out of a sow's ear" (sorry that is not a very nice thing to say about children). A child needs to have some ability there already - it may not have been recognised at school, but to pass NVR and VR tests, there has to be something.
Ami

Post by Ami »

Dear anonymous Guest & Patricia,

I am not saying that just about any child can be coached to attain the threshold mark; what I am saying is that you do not need a particularly gifted child (average Joe will do) to pass the grammar school or independent schools entrance exams as long as you start preparation proportionally earlier.

Yes Guest I firmly believe that children can systematically cut through most of the verbal reasoning and mathematics topics. If NFER (which I accept is a nationally respected body) had got it right then, for instance, the number of questions would not increase over the years and at the same time the time allowed to complete the tests would not be reduced (50 questions in 50 minutes to 100 questions in 45 minutes - these are NFER administered tests) within a decade or two UNLESS you accept that grammar school candidates of today are brighter than those of yester-year. Which I personally do not think is the case.

For instance, you will accept that verbal reasoning is, depending on the area you live in, more than 80% based on the strength of your vocabulary (at least it is in my area). A child who has practiced and reviewed with an adult (or tutor - even an hour a week for 9 to 12 months) numerous papers would clearly have extended his or her vocabulary merely through successive practice papers. To me it would be difficult for anyone to argue that this has not enhanced that average Joe's chances of success over his/her (probably brighter) peers.

Furthermore I am personally aware that many of the competitive schools are said to raise their pass-mark year after year. This can be explained in two ways: either quality of applicants has improved or coaching techniques are improved and raising the bar.

I do appreciate your point of view, but I think that there is a grey area between the two hypothesis that is subject to debate.

In the end we can agree to disagree. :wink:

Amita
patricia
Posts: 2803
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:07 pm

Post by patricia »

Dear Ami

Grammar schools could not fill their places with gifted children [ top 2%] they take approx top 30%

It is virtually impossible to teach 'average Joe' to pass the Bucks 11 plus, [ and I am sure thats the same for others] even with copius amounts of coaching. They have not got the 'intelligence' to take on board what is required and then 'do it ' in the time.

I do agree that coaching has probably raised the bar, making it even harder for ' average joe' to pass

Guess we will have to beg to differ!

Patricia
Last edited by patricia on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Edwards

Post by Mike Edwards »

It is reasonably clear that approximately 10% of children attending Grammar schools are their purely on individual merit.

The other 90% are there because they were coached either by a competent tutor or by a competent parent.

It is unfortunate that many bright children whose parents do not employ a competent tutor or whose parents are not competent tutors do not pass the entrance tests.

It is possible to tutor average children to pass the eleven plus if it is only based on verbal reasoning because there is a strong weighting towards method and technique rather than knowledge.

In fact it is possible to improve a childs score by over 30% in a twelve week period if a suitable programme is followed, irrespective of any advanced language acquisition.

It is also a fact that some children get grammar school places as a result of intensive tuition.

Unlike some tutors who only tutor for 11+ entrance tests, I also provide tuition for GCSEs and have experienced some students from Grammar schools being far below the abilities of those in local high schools, particularly in Maths and English.

Grammar school failures tend not to be offered sixth form places and have to relocate to local high schools or F.E. colleges for A levels. This makes Grammar school A level results look good.

There becomes a point where mummy and daddys pennies cannot buy an education.
patricia
Posts: 2803
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:07 pm

Post by patricia »

Yes there is a strong weighting towards method and technique,but they are not going to perform in time and gain enough marks from types BDHQS [not good enough vocab] Type F spelling will let them down type K will floor them [especially the second operation ] TYpe I and P towards the end of the batch will be too hard.

As the approx pass mark is quite high in Bucks, they would lose too many marks from each of these sections.

Obviously this is very much opinion, yes marks will increase, but not by enough, not children I have tutored

To those who do not know the Types I refer to, they come from publishers IPS

Patricia
Last edited by patricia on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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