11+ tests content and timing
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Mike Edwards
Hi Patricia
I would tend to assume that a child following a course of work would not stand still, they would move forward as is our experience.
The language used in the tests is not advanced nor is it technical.
A child who could not read or comprehend the text in verbal reasoning papers would, I think, be below average and in some cases considered to have a special need such as dyslexia.
We have collected evidence this year of students scores twelve weeks prior to the eleven plus tests and their scores immediately before the tests. As an extreme case we had a child scoring below 50% at the beginning who was achieving over 90% at the end, he would have been considered by us to be "average", and he will almost certainly pass. His main issue was a severe lack of confidence and self esteem.
As you know we do not believe in intensive pressure type tuition. Results can and have been achieved by students attending two one hour sessions per week. One to take a test under test conditions and the other to review their performance.
The problem with the selection process is that some bright children are not getting through, NFER make it easy for tutors and parents to coach average children because they do not change the structure of the tests often enough.
It is not good enough to increase the number of questions or reduce the time. I have a download (somewhere!!) of 100 types of questions that could be considered for verbal reasoning tests yet NFER only use twenty-one of them.
Until NFER stop claiming that tutoring makes little difference to performance then the system will remain the same.
Emotively, it is important to individual parents that their average child gets a place in a Grammar school, it is far more important to society that the brightest kids get those places. I believe NFER should work further to achieve this.
Regards
Mike
Hi
Technically I now spend five days a week in Spain, aren't I lucky!!
I would tend to assume that a child following a course of work would not stand still, they would move forward as is our experience.
The language used in the tests is not advanced nor is it technical.
A child who could not read or comprehend the text in verbal reasoning papers would, I think, be below average and in some cases considered to have a special need such as dyslexia.
We have collected evidence this year of students scores twelve weeks prior to the eleven plus tests and their scores immediately before the tests. As an extreme case we had a child scoring below 50% at the beginning who was achieving over 90% at the end, he would have been considered by us to be "average", and he will almost certainly pass. His main issue was a severe lack of confidence and self esteem.
As you know we do not believe in intensive pressure type tuition. Results can and have been achieved by students attending two one hour sessions per week. One to take a test under test conditions and the other to review their performance.
The problem with the selection process is that some bright children are not getting through, NFER make it easy for tutors and parents to coach average children because they do not change the structure of the tests often enough.
It is not good enough to increase the number of questions or reduce the time. I have a download (somewhere!!) of 100 types of questions that could be considered for verbal reasoning tests yet NFER only use twenty-one of them.
Until NFER stop claiming that tutoring makes little difference to performance then the system will remain the same.
Emotively, it is important to individual parents that their average child gets a place in a Grammar school, it is far more important to society that the brightest kids get those places. I believe NFER should work further to achieve this.
Regards
Mike
Hi
Technically I now spend five days a week in Spain, aren't I lucky!!
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Guest
Mike Edwards wrote:Hi Patricia
I would tend to assume that a child following a course of work would not stand still, they would move forward as is our experience.
The language used in the tests is not advanced nor is it technical.
A child who could not read or comprehend the text in verbal reasoning papers would, I think, be below average and in some cases considered to have a special need such as dyslexia.
We have collected evidence this year of students scores twelve weeks prior to the eleven plus tests and their scores immediately before the tests. As an extreme case we had a child scoring below 50% at the beginning who was achieving over 90% at the end, he would have been considered by us to be "average", and he will almost certainly pass. His main issue was a severe lack of confidence and self esteem.
As you know we do not believe in intensive pressure type tuition. Results can and have been achieved by students attending two one hour sessions per week. One to take a test under test conditions and the other to review their performance.
The problem with the selection process is that some bright children are not getting through, NFER make it easy for tutors and parents to coach average children because they do not change the structure of the tests often enough.
It is not good enough to increase the number of questions or reduce the time. I have a download (somewhere!!) of 100 types of questions that could be considered for verbal reasoning tests yet NFER only use twenty-one of them.
Until NFER stop claiming that tutoring makes little difference to performance then the system will remain the same.
Emotively, it is important to individual parents that their average child gets a place in a Grammar school, it is far more important to society that the brightest kids get those places. I believe NFER should work further to achieve this.
Regards
Mike
Hi
Technically I now spend five days a week in Spain, aren't I lucky!!
Your comments do make sense, but is it always the brightest kids that get the places? What about the Southend Grammars where you have to get an average of 10% more in the papers if you live outside the area. My son is at one of them and some of the children that got in because they live in the area have really struggled. When my son sat the 11+ he had to come in the top 1,100 to get a place - if we had lived in the Southend area he could have come anywhere up to 1,900 - a big difference.
Dear Mike
Agree, there are a number of bright students who do not make it to grammar, down to NFER/schools stating no practice required and some parents believing it.
I believe the language used for BHD and S can be advanced for the average child, vocab not used by your 'average' 10 year old.
I suppose the 'argument' comes down to how do you define average?
Tutored children, totally agree there can be a significant increase in marks at the before and after stage [hence disagree with NFERs insistence that practice makes little improvement.
Patricia
Agree, there are a number of bright students who do not make it to grammar, down to NFER/schools stating no practice required and some parents believing it.
I believe the language used for BHD and S can be advanced for the average child, vocab not used by your 'average' 10 year old.
I suppose the 'argument' comes down to how do you define average?
Tutored children, totally agree there can be a significant increase in marks at the before and after stage [hence disagree with NFERs insistence that practice makes little improvement.
Patricia
Last edited by patricia on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Edwards
Hi
There was no significant difference with the HIKNOS questions, because most of the students had seen them in the earlier stages of preparation and as fill-ins at the end of sessions.
It was easy to predict which questions were going to appear in the second paper so we were able to prepare supplementary material for them.
Also many of the students were completing papers well within the fifty minute time limit, the higher ability children were completing papers within thirty minutes and attaining 90-95%, this allowed them more time to concentrate on the additional questions.
Living in a rustic area with no electricity, no telephone line, no television, no water, no gas, no bills!!!! unless you count our contribution rustique which is 55Euro for the year. Nearest Internet cafe about 15km away. Also. as you know, I am not really interested in a lot of the posts on the forum. Can't wait for postings directed at helping parents and students preparing for this years tests.
The next six Bucks style papers are now written and should be available soon, with complimentary copies for you. Have spoken to Lee about developing other resources i.e. on-line tests and CD-Rom, they are in the discussion phase but much of the content has already been written.
Regards
Mike
There was no significant difference with the HIKNOS questions, because most of the students had seen them in the earlier stages of preparation and as fill-ins at the end of sessions.
It was easy to predict which questions were going to appear in the second paper so we were able to prepare supplementary material for them.
Also many of the students were completing papers well within the fifty minute time limit, the higher ability children were completing papers within thirty minutes and attaining 90-95%, this allowed them more time to concentrate on the additional questions.
Living in a rustic area with no electricity, no telephone line, no television, no water, no gas, no bills!!!! unless you count our contribution rustique which is 55Euro for the year. Nearest Internet cafe about 15km away. Also. as you know, I am not really interested in a lot of the posts on the forum. Can't wait for postings directed at helping parents and students preparing for this years tests.
The next six Bucks style papers are now written and should be available soon, with complimentary copies for you. Have spoken to Lee about developing other resources i.e. on-line tests and CD-Rom, they are in the discussion phase but much of the content has already been written.
Regards
Mike
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Mike & Patricia!
Great to see you two exchanging information and healthy debate again! I am trying to follow your posts for information (on the 12+ in our case - have stopped licking my wounds now) and will be very glad to see any more that pops up on this, especially the pitfalls of the IPS types, which are the books I plan to use with my son.
Could you remind exactly which IPS book I should start with Patricia? I want to spend time with my son on the types he really struggled with, rather than waste time on going through the easier ones with him. The first priority is therefore to remind myself which types they are.
Glad to hear of new ideas for on-line tests and Cd-Rom - something tells me that if the 11+ was on computer rather than paper my son would take a far greater interest!!
Thanks
Sally-Anne
Great to see you two exchanging information and healthy debate again! I am trying to follow your posts for information (on the 12+ in our case - have stopped licking my wounds now) and will be very glad to see any more that pops up on this, especially the pitfalls of the IPS types, which are the books I plan to use with my son.
Could you remind exactly which IPS book I should start with Patricia? I want to spend time with my son on the types he really struggled with, rather than waste time on going through the easier ones with him. The first priority is therefore to remind myself which types they are.
Glad to hear of new ideas for on-line tests and Cd-Rom - something tells me that if the 11+ was on computer rather than paper my son would take a far greater interest!!
Thanks
Sally-Anne
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
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Guest
Just found my daughter has passed
She was 11 in oct so will have been marked down but she got 41 marks over the pass mark
She had no tutoring. She just did a few familiarisation papers
and I disagree with the above
my friend works in a private school and they coach them to pass from yr3
She said many below average children pass it every year. Thats why their parents pay for them to go to that school. Disgraceful, yes, wrong yes, immoral yes, but true.
She was 11 in oct so will have been marked down but she got 41 marks over the pass mark
She had no tutoring. She just did a few familiarisation papers
and I disagree with the above
my friend works in a private school and they coach them to pass from yr3
She said many below average children pass it every year. Thats why their parents pay for them to go to that school. Disgraceful, yes, wrong yes, immoral yes, but true.
