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 Post subject: Number relationships
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Gloucestershire
example: (1 [3] 2) (4 [ 9] 5) (16 [ ] 4)

We tried tackling this question type head on and then just gave up with DC1 so now we're looking at other tactics to demystify this question type.

Could someone help, please.

We've seen that the number can be arrived at by a simple operation (+-x, division) followed by something random (minus 7, plus 2A, etc) or vice versa. So far this coupled with chocolate is fuelling our combat well.

But do any questions employ 2(tricky) or more operations - e.g. 2A + B squared; Half of B + (A-10) and so forth?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:48 pm 
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all manner of things can be used, but not as arcane as the ones you suggest.
Things like 2A minus B would be about as obscure as it got at this level.
Thank God my DS2 loved them (yes, you read that right) and just as Thank God I didn't know about them first time round since DS1 and I would have killed each other over them: him in despair, me in frustration (I'm such a good mother).

I made up a sheet of them so if you want it, PM me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2083
Location: Maidstone
Is the answer 20????

2+1 =3
4+5 =9
16+4 =20

I have put myself on the spotlight here. Please just tell me it is the right answer!!!
(walks away to hide) :oops:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:19 pm
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Location: Gloucestershire
sherry_d - yes, that's what I had in mind. You will have to be quicker than that if you want a chocolate button though!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:19 pm
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Location: Gloucestershire
Milla wrote:
all manner of things can be used, but not as arcane as the ones you suggest.
Things like 2A minus B would be about as obscure as it got at this level. Thank God my DS2 loved them (yes, you read that right) and just as Thank God I didn't know about them first time round since DS1 and I would have killed each other over them: him in despair, me in frustration (I'm such a good mother).
The site that dare not be mentioned has - or always used to - a section generating these endlessly. I'd say that they were at a much more difficult level than any I ever saw in the paper but I think I did do more difficult stuff generally with my boy and it meant the actual papers seemed quite "easy" to him so it paid off.

I made up a sheet of them so if you want it, PM me.


Thanks Milla!

I've gone from hating this question type to loving it, and as its the only one DC2 is having real difficulties with, I think she'll get to love them too when we've journeyed through the possibilities. (Not sure about A/B - n X A/B though).

I looked through the work I did with DC1 and found out the Letts papers I used don't have this type of question!

Yesterday we made 5 questions up for each other and competed for who could finish first. Seemed to work well for us. Today we used one section of ae which breaks it up nicely (though the layout plays havoc with my dyslexia). Doing it together helped so much, as we were both able to suggest time savers and I could see where she was slowing down/ speeding up.

If you've got a record of how you worked them out as well as the answer, would appreciate that list, yes please. I do seem to have a lot of examples now, and some of the ones I'm coming across seem too elaborate. There seem to be so many combinations to work through, I want to approach it in an organised way, but without missing anything out. AE, appears thorough at first but doesn't seem to account for something being done to both A and B (divide A and B by n then add together, for example).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Posts: 8206
Location: Buckinghamshire
fruit salad wrote:
I looked through the work I did with DC1 and found out the Letts papers I used don't have this type of question!

Type K is one of the "HIKNOS" questions that doesn't appear on Letts or Gl assessment papers. This thread shows that.

viewtopic.php?t=3740

You will find them on these papers (list nicked from one of Patricia's posts :D):

AFN [slightly easier]
IPS,
The Tutors [ middle range difficulty]
Learning Lab
Susan Daughtrey [very close the correct level of difficulty, use packs of 4 tests, NOT her books 1-7],
Walsh, [ [quite hard in some areas]

HTH

S-A


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Posts: 2660
At the start of my tuition, I always write 'helpful' notes next to each type within the test that is left for homework. For type K bracket maths, I write the following:

Middle number has been made using the numbers either side.
Same rule must apply for all 3 sets.
Sometimes 1 operation. Sometimes 2.
Second operation can be:

1] + - x / [divide sign!] the same number.
2] doubling/halving
3] + - x / [divide sign] the number on the left or right of the middle number.


Whilst teaching, I always say:

If the number in the middle is bigger than the 2 either side then your 1st operation is probably adding or multiplying.

If the number in the middle is smaller that at least one of the numbers either side, then your 1st operation is probably subtracting or dividing.

I always emphasise the word probably, because there are times when this rule will not work, they are not to panic, if it doesn't work, thats fine, just try the other 2 operaions.

I will write a more full explanation when I have a bit more time.

Patricia


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Gloucestershire
Gosh thanks! I really wonder how DD1 managed to pass the 11+ as I can now see my involvement mainly put obstacles in her way!

DD2 approaches everything in a much more logical, methodical way and so she's having none of my nonsense! :lol: Hence I am having to work quite a bit harder to be of any use, and all the advice is much appreciated.

I'm sure lots of others will find it useful too.

You must get tired of repeating yourselves on here, but it really is a great help. Thank you!


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