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 Post subject: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:36 pm
Posts: 35
Hi
Can anyone help with these questions:
(5 [19] 4) (7 [32] 11)
(9 [ ? ]10)answer 37

(2 [30]5) (3 [63] 7)
(7 [? ]6) answer 126

Underline two words similar in meaning
oak, chesnut,sycamore (pine elm beech larch fir)
Answer elm beech.
Can't understand the logic in this one as they all are names of trees.

Many thanks


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 63
Hi,
For the first one,
5x3 + 4 = 19
7x3 + 11 = 32

and 9x3 + 10 = 37

it is the same calculations for the second one too..


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 8206
Location: Buckinghamshire
aaman1 wrote:
(5 [19] 4) (7 [32] 11)
(9 [ ? ]10)answer 37


3 x 5 = 15 + 4 = 19
3 x 7 = 21 + 11 = 32
3 x 9 = 27 + 10 = 37

In each case the hidden operation is x3

Quote:
(2 [30]5) (3 [63] 7)
(7 [? ]6) answer 126


2 x 5 = 10 x 3 = 30
3 x 7 = 21 x 3 = 63
7 x 6 = 42 x 3 = 126

Again, the hidden operation is x3

Quote:
Underline two words similar in meaning
oak, chesnut,sycamore (pine elm beech larch fir)
Answer elm beech.
Can't understand the logic in this one as they all are names of trees.

This is a completely ridiculous question because it relies on prior knowledge that is way beyond that a 10 year old (or even many adults) could be expected to have.

Oak, Chestnut and Sycamore are all deciduous trees.
Elm and beech are also deciduous trees.
Pine, Fir and Larch are conifers, and therefore considered to be "evergreen" trees, although the larch is in fact a deciduous conifer - it loses its leaves in winter. Whoever wrote this question did not know their trees!


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:36 pm
Posts: 35
Thanks everyone really helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:38 am
Posts: 86
aaman1 wrote:
Underline two words similar in meaning
oak, chesnut,sycamore (pine elm beech larch fir)
Answer elm beech.
Can't understand the logic in this one as they all are names of trees.


Is that _really_ an 11+ question in 2011?

I suspect the answer they think they're looking for is that elm and beech, like oaks, chesnuts and sycamores are all deciduous (shed their leaves in autumn), while pine, larch and fir are conifers (which in general are evergreens). Unfortunately, larches are conifers that are also deciduous. So in fact the only distinction that works properly is that O, C, S, E and B are all hardwoods, while the remainder are softwoods. How on earth a child is expected to know that, or what is proven about them by knowing it, God alone knows.


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 8206
Location: Buckinghamshire
Just to add, I may perhaps have been over-thinking the rationale behind the last question. A simpler explanation would be that the first three all have leaves, as do elm and beech, while pine, fir and larch have needles.

It is still a question that requires a high level of prior learning, and that is not the purpose of multiple choice 11+ tests.

And there is still plenty of room for ambiguity though, as both my reply and that of xxzzy demonstrate!


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 Post subject: Re: help please
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 577
This 'hidden operation' - is it a technique that the How To Do Verbal Reasoning books explain? Because I could not have worked out Aaman's maths posers in fifty years. My brain simply doesn't process information in that way. So I wouldn't begin to know how to help my DC if qus like this crop up. But having been shown the technique, I'd now know look out for it.


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