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 Post subject: need help please:)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:03 am
Posts: 32
Hi my dd and I are struggling with the 2 quest below, please help!

68[14]17 76[14]19 49[?]7 answer is 17


3[12]24 6[24]36 5[?]32 answer is 20

thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:15 am
Posts: 59
Location: Gloucestershire
Hi

I think the first one is

divide 1st by 2nd and then add 10 to the answer

68/17=4+10=14
76/19=4+10 = 14
49/7=7+10=17

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Pushkin


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:15 am
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Location: Gloucestershire
I think the second one is one of those evil 3 operation sums that seem to be creeping in lately :)

24 * 3 =72/6 =12 (6 is arrived at by 2nd number/4)

6*36 = 216/9 = 24 (9=2nd number /4)

Answer:

32 * 5 = 160/8 = 20 (8=32/4)

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Pushkin


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:46 pm
Posts: 188
3[12]24 6[24]36 5[?]32

I would explain this as the first number times 4 gives the second number then add 12 to the second number to get the third number:

3 x 4 = 12...................12 + 12 = 24

6 x 4 = 24...................24 + 12 = 36

5 x 4 = 20...................20 + 12 = 32


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:49 am
Posts: 450
Kiwimum wrote:
3[12]24 6[24]36 5[?]32

I would explain this as the first number times 4 gives the second number then add 12 to the second number to get the third number:

3 x 4 = 12...................12 + 12 = 24

6 x 4 = 24...................24 + 12 = 36

5 x 4 = 20...................20 + 12 = 32


Except that we are trying to find the number in the middle?

The answer could simply be R-12, where R is the right hand number. Surely a methodology of (RL)/(R/4) is too much to expect of an 11 year old. But it seems a bit odd to use just one of the numbers, though I've seen a few examples where you can work an answer either using just one of the numbers, or by using both numbers in a more complex pattern. Do we have any evidence that the three stage questions actually appear in 11+ papers, and if so, in what areas?


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:59 am
Posts: 2001
3[12]24 6[24]36 5[?]32 answer is 20
A [B] C

A times C divided by A+3

3*24 =72 72/6 = 12
6*36=216 216/9 =24
5*32= 160 160/8=20


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 8200
Location: Buckinghamshire
Y wrote:
Do we have any evidence that the three stage questions actually appear in 11+ papers, and if so, in what areas?
I think that is a very good question. We believe that three stage questions do appear, but the question is the level of difficulty.

The methodology for the first example (divide, add 10) appears on the Susan Daughtrey papers, but in a simpler form, e.g.
9 [13] 3
20 [15] 4
36 [19] 4

The maths is within the standard 12-times tables and I would therefore expect a 10 year old to make an immediate connection between 9 & 3, 20 & 4 and 36 & 4. Spotting that the solution is then "add 10" will be obvious to some, but not others. (Of course, the fact that the method appears on a well-known practice paper does not mean that it definitely appears on the real papers.)

The problem with the example quoted above is that it goes well beyond the range of the child's comfort zone with times tables, and then requires the further leap of "add 10". I am not convinced that many children would solve it within the 40 seconds or so allowed for each question, or even twice that.

As far as I am concerned the second example comes from a world called "Extreme VR" and there is no evidence at all that questions of the same complexity turn up on real papers, at least not in Bucks and therefore probably not on GL Assessment papers.

saimaj21, where are these questions from?


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:08 am 
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 10:56 am
Posts: 215
Hi,
I agree with Pushkin for 1st one, that's how we did it,

2nd one 3(12)24 3x24=72
1st no. +3 (3+3=6)
72 divided by 6=12


6(24)36
6x36=216
1st no. add 3 (6+3=9)
216 divided by9=24

etc.


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:10 am 
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 10:56 am
Posts: 215
Mita sol you beat me to it. lol.
(went for a tea break in between)


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 Post subject: Re: need help please:)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:26 am 
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 10:56 am
Posts: 215
Hi Sally Anne,
I do remember reading Patricia saying that she is seeing triple operation questions such as this one and she is teaching the kids this in case it comes up.

Patricia may add on to this.


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