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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Firstly apologies if this subject has already been mentioned but I couldn't find it anywhere.
I just wondered what other people's opinions were in respect of the way Tiffins dealt with the test results this year.
Now I appreciate that the school had to give an indication of whether it was worth putting it as a choice on the CAF but my question is did they have to give the actual score? Wouldn't it suffice to write and inform anyone who got 223 ( based on the lowest cut off point over last 5 years)or above, that they had passed and could be eligible for a place if entered on CAF. It seems to me that by giving the actual score( rather than a pass or fail, which is all they were required to do) they have (1) offered a place to those high scoring candidates without actually offering them a place (2)run the risk of boys comparing scores when they start at the school which I feel could be detrimental, I only say this because as I understand it Tiffin never released scores previously for this exact reason, unless you were on the waiting list, and is it not right that everyone starts on a level playing field after all you may score highly on test but not be as academically gifted as someone who scored lower in test. Sutton Grammar still work like this, so those boys sitting 2nd test on 17th know they have a chance but it is still in the lap of the Gods, they also NEVER find out their score if they are offered and accept a place.
Have spoken to several other parents who have varying opinions so thought I would open it up for discussion on here, so what do you think ????


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Tiffin have always given scores whether or not the boys are offered a place.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:09 pm 
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ASDDAD wrote:

Have spoken to several other parents who have varying opinions so thought I would open it up for discussion on here, so what do you think ????


I think score as well as rank should be given, if the aim for giving this information is to make informed choice. Not knowing score is not level playing field. Tiffins has always been giving score and that has not made any difference to how children have to get on with their work after starting year 7. Some teachers (see Guest55 posts earlier) immediately point out that high scorers are not the high achievers, dump down the high scorers and level them all.

Sutton Grammar does not give score. They also use banding to create an artifical gap so that appeals can be reduced. They never annouced this before and were only caught out by School Adjudicator recently. They also did not publish their Determined Admissions Arrangements until middle of September - something which is required by middle of April.

Worse kind of results are the one where 500 to 700 children are told that they have passed the test. Not knowing whether one is in top 100 or bottom 100 is no use to make informed choice, which was the objective of the changes to the Admissions code.

I sometimes feel that schools which hide the scores are actually trying to hide something more. Does any one knows what is the maximum score a child could get in Wallington Girls or what is the weightage of VR and Maths papers?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Last year SG gave out scores after offers day to everyone who was not offered a place come 1st of March. Therefore children who were on the waiting list and then offered a place did know their score. Not sure if the same will happen this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Thanks for replies, it's interesting to hear other views :-)

scoobydoo wrote:
Tiffin have always given scores whether or not the boys are offered a place.


If this is the case I stand corrected :-) but I assume scores were only released after all places had been offered?
tiffinboys wrote:
ASDDAD wrote:



I think score as well as rank should be given, if the aim for giving this information is to make informed choice. Not knowing score is not level playing field. Tiffins has always been giving score and that has not made any difference to how children have to get on with their work after starting year 7. Some teachers (see Guest55 posts earlier) immediately point out that high scorers are not the high achievers, dump down the high scorers and level them all.

Sutton Grammar does not give score. They also use banding to create an artifical gap yes have to agree that this does seem pretty unfairso that appeals can be reduced. They never annouced this before and were only caught out by School Adjudicator recently. They also did not publish their Determined Admissions Arrangements until middle of September - something which is required by middle of April. but strangely enough are refusing to sit any further tests, as Tiffin have had to do, the same goes for Wallngton and Wilson's

Worse kind of results are the one where 500 to 700 children are told that they have passed the test. Not knowing whether one is in top 100 or bottom 100 is no use to make informed choice, which was the objective of the changes to the Admissions code.Fair point but by not giving an actual pass mark and giving a range between 223 and 229, couldn't it be seen as not making an informed choice either as people in that position are no better off than candidates in previous years who didn't know ??

I sometimes feel that schools which hide the scores are actually trying to hide something more. agreed:-)Does any one knows what is the maximum score a child could get in Wallington Girls or what is the weightage of VR and Maths papers?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:38 pm 
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cakemummy wrote:
Last year SG gave out scores after offers day to everyone who was not offered a place come 1st of March. Therefore children who were on the waiting list and then offered a place did know their score. Not sure if the same will happen this year.


Thanks for clarifying that, I was aware of that but forget to mention it. What I was saying was in general they don't know so even those who did get score via waiting list wouldn't know who else got in via waiting list so it wouldn't necessarily be discussed etc etc. To contradict myself as well the fact that Tiffin score is out now means that by time they start in September it's old news so probably wont be discussed, see I am open minded:-)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:51 pm 
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ASDDAD wrote:

Fair point but by not giving an actual pass mark and giving a range between 223 and 229, couldn't it be seen as not making an informed choice either as people in that position are no better off than candidates in previous years who didn't know ??


Pass marks for each year are in public domain. In fact, Tiffins and Kingston LA give lot more information than Sutton schools.

Final cut-off scores for last 3 years were 225, 226, and 229 respectively.
Number of offers after initial allocation were 28, 26, and 27 respectively.

http://www.kingston.gov.uk/secbook2013.pdf


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks for clarifying that, I was aware of that but forget to mention it. What I was saying was in general they don't know so even those who did get score via waiting list wouldn't know who else got in via waiting list so it wouldn't necessarily be discussed etc etc.


You'd be surprised, my son knows one or two boys in his year who did get in via the waiting list. Children are quite open at that age especially on the way too and from school.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:47 pm 
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Pass marks for each year are in public domain. In fact, Tiffins and Kingston LA give lot more information than Sutton schools.

Final cut-off scores for last 3 years were 225, 226, and 229 respectively.
Number of offers after initial allocation were 28, 26, and 27 respectively.

http://www.kingston.gov.uk/secbook2013.pdf[/quote]

This is useful information to have and as you say is easily accessible via public domain, I was never saying that Kingston were by any means secretive (we found all the above information very easily when we reserached it months ago) and definitely don't want to give the impression that I favour Sutton over Tiffins (if anything, it's the complete opposite) but I just wanted to raise concerns over certain aspects. Some of the answers have cleared any worries I may have had with regards to playground chatter regarding scores etc. I am not the best at articulating myself and feel the point I'm trying to make is not coming across very well. By giving previous 5 years marks (which have risen year by year) you can make a fair assumption that the cut off score for entry will rise again this year, that said it would probably be a safe bet to say that anyone with a score of say 235 this year stands a pretty good chance of getting offered a place. On the opposite end anyone scoring,let's say222 is pretty certain that they have not scored high enough and will probably choose not to waste a selection on the CAF. So generally knowing the score is a good thing one way or another UNLESS you are on one of the borderline scores (223-234) or thereabouts because you cannot make a fully informed decision either way, you can just hope for the best. My wife has spoken to parents of children already in Tiffins and Sutton and they actually think that in this situation the wait is actually worse than not knowing the score, because it is basically still in the lap of the Gods as we are none the wiser. In that situation you have to put it on the CAF and hope for the best because if you didn't and the cut off was miraculously lower for some reason you would be kicking yourselves as it is far too small a margin to call. I also appreciate that is hard to see my point if you are in either of the other positions ( i.e pretty sure you have passed or failed) you can pretty much move on and forget about it, we on the other hand have to wait another 4 months. What will be will be, we just need to wait until 1st March oh and of course hope not too many boys score highly on the Tiffin test in December LOL :)

That said on the matter of 2nd Test, On a serious point I understand why they have to sit another test etc but I really don't understand how anyone who really wanted there child to go to Tiffins, did not research when test was, go to open evening or visit website as I'm sure the majority of parents on here did months ago. I could understand the odd few missing it for valid reasons, but when you hear the numbers that could possibly be sitting it, it sounds more opportunistic to me, but that's just my opinion.

I also take your point about it not being right to have say 500-700 people passed but that is exactly what Sutton have done this year, they have 500 or so boys sitting a 2nd test after CAF has closed, so a majority of those will be wasted choices, so how is that more informed than before?

Goodnight :D


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:29 am 
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A little observation that i made looking at the Kingston Local Authority link given above is that
2011 number of DC giving the test is 1367 original cutoff is 228
2012 number of DC giving the test is 1685 original cutoff is 231
so the increase in number of children is 318 and 3 point increase in cutoff so it is around about 1 point per hundred children.
Now I guess there might be a large number of children giving the test in dec or they might just be more prepared, but then i agree with ASDDAD that someone who was serious about their child giving tiffins test would keep an eye on the deadline.
I guess there is nothing much one can do but wait for 1st of March.


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