Tiffins Entrance Test results

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twelveminus
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by twelveminus »

The process is a bit confusing.

As I understand it, they gave out normalised grades for stage 1, using the NFER standard of 100 mean, 15 standard deviation, 140 maximum score. These scores would have been age-adjusted.

They have now taken the grades for the 450+ girls who passed stage 1, and applied some other process to them to give a score between 0 and 30. It is not clear if this process has adjusted for age, nor whether it has been normalised or scaled.

One piece of data that I think is important is that approximately 450 girls sat the second stage, but only 150 were offered a place.

If, as one might assume, the scaled scores were normalised with 50% as the mean, then you would expect a passing grade to be over 50 out of 100.

This is not the case. In fact, the passing grade was only 49.78

If a raw reasoning score of 130/160 translates to a scaled mark of 6.97/30, then, assuming that the top girl scored close to 160, it is possible that a simple scaling was done.

I.e., if the highest scoring girl who passed stage 1 scored x, and the lowest scoring girl who passed stage 2 scored y, and the girl who scored x was given a scaled score of 30/30, and the girl who scored y was given 0/30, then one scaled mark is equal to 30/(x-y)

Working down from x = 160, we find:

for x = 160
if y = 120, then n = 130 is 7.5 marks
if y = 121, then n = 130 is 6.92 marks

for x = 159
if y = 121, then n = 130 is 7.11 marks
if y = 122, then n = 130 is 6.49 marks

for x = 158
if y = 121, then n = 130 is 7.30 marks
if y = 122, then n = 130 is 6.67 marks

and so on, until we see that the scale cannot possibly be linear.

Therefore we must conclude that they have normalised the raw scores by some means.

There are very few datapoints to make any kind of judgement on this - we need raw, scaled scores, for each type, and maybe DoB as well.

One thing I can say is that the methodology appears suspect, since the pass mark is only 50, but they were looking to reject 2/3 of the girls. If the distribution of the summed scaled scores is normal, that would mean the pass mark is about 0.43 standard deviations above the mean, and therefore the mean mark is likely to have been 40/100 or below

If the distribution of the summed scaled scores is NOT normal, then this is a problem because it suggests that some subjects are effectively overweight.

Dependent on the methodology used, there might be grounds for appeal.
tiffinboys
Posts: 8022
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by tiffinboys »

twelveminus wrote:The process is a bit confusing.....

One thing I can say is that the methodology appears suspect.........
Dependent on the methodology used, there might be grounds for appeal.
I agree and hope that TGS soon come out with the method they used for calculating scaled marks.

In the meanwhile, the 300 or so who didn't get the place would be better advised to prepare for appeals.
TiffinGirls
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by TiffinGirls »

I really don't think that advising those who didn't get in to appeal is the way forward - it will just divert the school funds into fighting appeals. I think the school has bent over backwards to accommodate those moaning that the VR/NVR weren't fair and while giving more weight to a particular subject would probably benefit some individuals it would be to the detriment of others; some are better at maths, some at English etc etc.

Already the school cannot properly fund the Sixth Form and they do one lesson less than they should a week, this has been the case for some years. Presumably this is one of the reasons families turn to tutoring. As a parent I really don't want more money diverted from teaching.

Anecdotally they do have girls in year 7 struggling with English. Perhaps they are trying to ensure that the intake has a high level of literacy?
tiffinboys
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Location: Surrey

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by tiffinboys »

TiffinGirls wrote:I really don't think that advising those who didn't get in to appeal is the way forward - it will just divert the school funds into fighting appeals. I think the school has bent over backwards to accommodate those moaning that the VR/NVR weren't fair and while giving more weight to a particular subject would probably benefit some individuals it would be to the detriment of others; some are better at maths, some at English etc etc.

Already the school cannot properly fund the Sixth Form and they do one lesson less than they should a week, this has been the case for some years. Presumably this is one of the reasons families turn to tutoring. As a parent I really don't want more money diverted from teaching.

Anecdotally they do have girls in year 7 struggling with English. Perhaps they are trying to ensure that the intake has a high level of literacy?
We have all welcomed tests in English & Maths. That's not what is being debated.

The method of scaled marking is what would give rise to appeals. That's why I have suggested that TGS should come out with the method they used. I have seen/heard some of the marks of girls at our primary and I can say that there is lot of confusion and disappointments. It is better that the doubts are cleared as soon as possible.

I know about the girls considered to be above level 5A and nearly 6 in English, who got over 130 in Nonsuch English (and also offered indies, like LEH etc.), who failed to get in TGS due to low marks in English and again the way stage 1 tests were scaled down. These girls have passed many other tests including Nonsuch, Wallington, LEH and WHS and got offers from Nonsuch (their 2nd choice) and indies like LEH. WHS and others.

Incidently, a large batch of girls from our primary got offers for Nonsuch, though TGS was their first choice. Among those on TGS wait list, 2 are between 0.2 to 0.5 points away from the cut-offs. Hope they soon get TGS offers. I wish them good luck.

If the TGS is not properly funded for 6th Form, that is a matter of grave concern. And this should be taken up with the Education Department. Tiffingirls, are the TGS parents doing anything about it? Is your MPs informed? Any campaign planned to rectify this shortfall?
Last edited by tiffinboys on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
TiffinGirls
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Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by TiffinGirls »

Well perhaps TGS has higher standards in English than Nonsuch.
tiffinboys
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Location: Surrey

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by tiffinboys »

And TGS were testing to level 5 at the end of year 6, if their communications are to be believed. :roll: :roll:
TiffinGirls
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by TiffinGirls »

TBH I am sick of all the whining and bleating "it's not fair". When DD applied to HBS which did similar subject the standardisation was unknown - people just accepted it. The school has decided on the form of standardisation it wants and selected 150 girls on that basis.

I think people on this forum have a vested interest in making the administration of the school as difficult as possible - until of course the school obeys their wish of taking students from Kingston Borough only.

If people on this forum are encouraging 300 appeals, where is the money going to come from? It is going to be diverted from the education of girls already in the school. I have had to spend a load of money on text books, photocopies and lord knows what else because the school is so poorly funded.
tiffinboys
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Location: Surrey

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by tiffinboys »

Are you suggesting parents not to exercise their legal rights?

Obviously not all would think it worthwhile due to perhaps low scores. But many on the border line would be interested to know how the scaling has been done and whether it was appropriate.
I think people on this forum have a vested interest in making the administration of the school as difficult as possible - until of course the school obeys their wish of taking students from Kingston Borough only.
That's your view and you may have as many incorrect views as you like. As far as we know, and I stand to be corrected, Tiffins do not listen to the views held by the local parents about admission policies and this is going on since 1990s.
I have had to spend a load of money on text books, photocopies and lord knows what else because the school is so poorly funded.
As suggested earlier, if TGS is not properly funded despite being such an awesome School, then parents, LA and School should join hands and campaign for proper funding, specially if lessons are being cut due to funding problems.

I would definitely pass your concerns to our local MP. I know he is busy in trying to get funding for North Kingston secondary school, but perhaps he can still have some influence. TGS is no longer LA maintained, so I know what would be the response of our Councillors, specially as the majority group (Liberals) are not in favour of grammars any way and have tried in the past to abolish grammar status of Tiffins. Tiffins survived due to strong opposition by the local parents and were amply rewarded by Tiffins & LA by adopting 100% open selection.
tabasco
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:21 am

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by tabasco »

I personally don't think there is a problem to rescale the stage 1 NVR/VR test result. The purpose is to compare and evaluate all the 435 DDs who sat for the stage 2 test.

It is obvious that TGS has valued English and Maths more from the 2013 entry cohort of DDs. Standardisation is only fair if this apply to all the DDs being assess at a particular stage of assessment. As I have mentioned before the initial stage 1 test result was standardised from results of 1626 DDs, and would not be appropriate to just bring forward to the final mark without restandardisation.

It was clearly indicated that the stage 2 test will consists of Maths, Reading (that means reading comprehension) and writing and the test is worth 70% of the final mark. I can see no ground of appeal in this instance. If a DD got lower mark in Maths and English and ended up with a lower final mark is based on the relative performance in the three stage 2 papers. The school surely should trust their own assessment over any other reports or assessment from a DD's school, otherwise what is the point of having 11+?

Appeal is only appropriate when there is unforseen circumstances, such as the DD is unwell, family circumstance or disturbances during the tests etc and not because TGS has restandardised stage 1 results.
Last edited by tabasco on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
London_Mum
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:44 am

Re: Tiffins Entrance Test results

Post by London_Mum »

I think people on this forum have a vested interest in making the administration of the school as difficult as possible
I think that is very unfair. Parents have a legal right to appeal and indeed should be encouraged to appeal if they believe that their daughter would benefit from a place at Tiffins. It is nothing to do with bleating about unfairness. It is about pursuing all avenues to seek the best possible outcome for your child and parents have the absolute right to do this without being made to feel guilty about 6th form funding shortfalls.

It follows that a school like Tiffins is so desirable that it could potentially attract dozens of appeals from parents all believing their child's interests would best be served by being offered a place. If a school wishes to minimise the impact of this, one way for them to do so is to have an absolutely crystal clear admissions policy and marks scheme. Any hint of doubt about how final selections have been made will lead people to pursue and invest hope in the appeal process. If parents are given clear guidance on the mark scheme and can see the method applied, they are more likely to accept and not challenge a very low score.
Appeal is only appropriate when there is unforseen circumstances, such as the DD is unwell, family circumstance or disturbances during the tests etc and not because TGS has restandised stage 1 results.
No - the appeals system is very much part of the overall admissions process and, if anything, is not used by parents enough. Too many parents rely solely on waiting list movement even if they have very strong reasons for wanting their child to attend Tiffins (or any school) and for believing it is the best school option for their child. Debate about about the scoring process may prompt more appeals but parents can and do win appeals based on the suitability of a school to meet their child's educational or other needs and should use the appeal process to put forward their case.
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