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Bexley Mum 2
- Posts: 851
- Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:55 pm
- Location: Bexley
Actually, I wonder if Sassie's dad is right as I still haven't quite grasped why it is no longer possible for children to do level 6 maths in primary school, thereby stretching more able children.
I take the point Guest 55 that the full range of level 6 topics is wide and that most year 6s won't be capable of it, but surely there must be some who are? I have 3 boys and I felt that Y6 was very tedious for the eldest two - both said that they were just going over stuff they'd done in year 5. If schools are meant to be stretching children then presumably those who reach a good level 5 maths in year 5 may be capable of getting level 6 in year 6 and should be given this challenge?
My youngest son's Y5 teacher told me at the start of this year that he was a good level 5. Does he have to remain at level 5 for almost two years? He's very bright and finds school boring. I'm sure he would enjoy a challenge.
My second son was level 5 in year 5 and at the start of his second term in year 7 was assessed by his teacher as 6A. So, presumably he might have been a 6C at the end of year 6?
My eldest sons' GS had 45% of boys at level 8 at the end of KS3 last year (test results not teacher assessment). So if these boys had only been capable of level 5 at the end of year 6, then they've advanced at least 2.3 levels in 3 years. At primary school, if they got a level 3 at the end of KS1 then they can only go up 2 levels in 4 years. I would expect there to be a smoother progression in attainment and the fact that there isn't suggests to me that more able children are treading water, at least in maths, at the end of KS2.
I take the point Guest 55 that the full range of level 6 topics is wide and that most year 6s won't be capable of it, but surely there must be some who are? I have 3 boys and I felt that Y6 was very tedious for the eldest two - both said that they were just going over stuff they'd done in year 5. If schools are meant to be stretching children then presumably those who reach a good level 5 maths in year 5 may be capable of getting level 6 in year 6 and should be given this challenge?
My youngest son's Y5 teacher told me at the start of this year that he was a good level 5. Does he have to remain at level 5 for almost two years? He's very bright and finds school boring. I'm sure he would enjoy a challenge.
My second son was level 5 in year 5 and at the start of his second term in year 7 was assessed by his teacher as 6A. So, presumably he might have been a 6C at the end of year 6?
My eldest sons' GS had 45% of boys at level 8 at the end of KS3 last year (test results not teacher assessment). So if these boys had only been capable of level 5 at the end of year 6, then they've advanced at least 2.3 levels in 3 years. At primary school, if they got a level 3 at the end of KS1 then they can only go up 2 levels in 4 years. I would expect there to be a smoother progression in attainment and the fact that there isn't suggests to me that more able children are treading water, at least in maths, at the end of KS2.
You can get a teacher assessed level 6 - just not a level 6 in the test. There are plenty of enrichment activities for Year 6 including the Primary Maths challenge. My DC was also level 5 by the end of Y4 yet did not mark time.
Many GS get more than 45% level 8s .. that does not mean they have a total grasp of level 8 as it's awarded for roughly 100/150.
Many GS get more than 45% level 8s .. that does not mean they have a total grasp of level 8 as it's awarded for roughly 100/150.
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Bexley Mum 2
- Posts: 851
- Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:55 pm
- Location: Bexley
Guest 55 - I understood you to mean that you thought Level 6 was too hard for most year 6s. My point is that there must be more than the odd child who might aspire to a level 6 at the age of 11. Of course in an ideal world primary schools will be giving more able children level 6 extension work. But if the level 6 test no longer exists, there must be a temptation for schools to let the safe level 5s tread water and focus on the rest.
Yes - I do think some aspects of level 6 are beyond a Year 6 pupil but that does not mean they can't 'dip their toes' in some of the ideas. However I am against acceleration for lots of reasons -
The level 6 paper was stopped because so few got level 6 and few were entered in the first place.
http://www.emaths.co.uk/KS2SAT.htm
You can see the extension papers 2000, 2001 and 2002 - they do not test anywhere like the whole of KS3 level 6 ...
The level 6 paper was stopped because so few got level 6 and few were entered in the first place.
http://www.emaths.co.uk/KS2SAT.htm
You can see the extension papers 2000, 2001 and 2002 - they do not test anywhere like the whole of KS3 level 6 ...
My random experience (FWIW)
DS2 was always in love with Maths: one of his infant school teachers was thrilled & gave him a level 4 paper in Yr 2, and he did take & pass the last optional Level 6 papers in Yr 6 (in Maths and Science, just missed the English one..). Both the (large) primary, his 11-16 comp and his KE 6th form grammar had excellent Maths teachers who were able to recognise this talent and give appropriate extension work/ Maths challenges etc even though he took all his GCSEs at the normal time (as regular readers will know, he is now at Oxford reading Maths...)
DD is not in the same league when it comes to a natural flair for Maths but is bright and at the same primary / comp has been in top Maths sets which have been more-or less a year ahead for a while. She was given a teacher-assessed level 6 IIRC, (definitely covered Year 7 work at Primary - one advantage of close collaboration between the local comp and its few primary feeders was the continuity & shared planning of this sort). She should be taking GCSE a year early, then in Yr 11 will do Stats GCSE and a bridging course to A level (which she is planning to include among her options)
So either way it can be done, and a good Maths teacher (like Guest55 I'm sure) will pick out those "sparks" of talent with or without official tests and help to ignite the flames of enthusiasm...
DS2 was always in love with Maths: one of his infant school teachers was thrilled & gave him a level 4 paper in Yr 2, and he did take & pass the last optional Level 6 papers in Yr 6 (in Maths and Science, just missed the English one..). Both the (large) primary, his 11-16 comp and his KE 6th form grammar had excellent Maths teachers who were able to recognise this talent and give appropriate extension work/ Maths challenges etc even though he took all his GCSEs at the normal time (as regular readers will know, he is now at Oxford reading Maths...)
DD is not in the same league when it comes to a natural flair for Maths but is bright and at the same primary / comp has been in top Maths sets which have been more-or less a year ahead for a while. She was given a teacher-assessed level 6 IIRC, (definitely covered Year 7 work at Primary - one advantage of close collaboration between the local comp and its few primary feeders was the continuity & shared planning of this sort). She should be taking GCSE a year early, then in Yr 11 will do Stats GCSE and a bridging course to A level (which she is planning to include among her options)
So either way it can be done, and a good Maths teacher (like Guest55 I'm sure) will pick out those "sparks" of talent with or without official tests and help to ignite the flames of enthusiasm...
I am inclined to agree with Solimum, also wouldn't this just result in raising the bench mark even further for primaries many of which are already caught in a trap of producing ridiculously high SATS results as it is. Surely many gifted children would not have been and still would not be put in for a level 6 in many schools because the Y6 teacher would possibly not be up to teaching Maths confidently at that level anyway.
Tempting as it is to criticize the teacher for this we must bear in mind that primary teachers do have to be jack of all trades unlike secondary teachers. Whilst in large primary schools there will probably be the option of setting children for many small schools with less teaching staff this is far more difficult to facilitate.
Having said that I do believe children shouldn't be left to get bored whatever the circumstances.
Tempting as it is to criticize the teacher for this we must bear in mind that primary teachers do have to be jack of all trades unlike secondary teachers. Whilst in large primary schools there will probably be the option of setting children for many small schools with less teaching staff this is far more difficult to facilitate.
Having said that I do believe children shouldn't be left to get bored whatever the circumstances.
I agree that children shouldn't be left to get bored either - and I think in most Primary schools this doesn't happen - there is plenty of sideways stretching that can be done. I just can't see the advantage to anyone of getting a level 6 in year 6. Can anyone who thinks it's a good idea explain to me?
good point about the sideways stretching,
asking children WHY does that happen, does it work with ALL numbers, if not WHY NOT, can you spot a rule? Using and applying maths is often neglected and able children really benefit from being given challenges and investigations. It stands them in good stead for their secondary schooling too. Questioning and investigating are incredibly important skills especially in maths and science.
You are right to point out that Primary school teachers have to be Jack of All Trades, the danger being that many people assume that we are masters of none. The secondary science teacher who condescendingly told me that of course secondary science teachers were specialists and understood their subject, seemed amazed to find out that this junior school teacher had a degree in Chemistry.
asking children WHY does that happen, does it work with ALL numbers, if not WHY NOT, can you spot a rule? Using and applying maths is often neglected and able children really benefit from being given challenges and investigations. It stands them in good stead for their secondary schooling too. Questioning and investigating are incredibly important skills especially in maths and science.
You are right to point out that Primary school teachers have to be Jack of All Trades, the danger being that many people assume that we are masters of none. The secondary science teacher who condescendingly told me that of course secondary science teachers were specialists and understood their subject, seemed amazed to find out that this junior school teacher had a degree in Chemistry.