Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
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tiredmumof2
- Posts: 66
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Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
I think that you have hit the nail on the head here. In the case of my DD, in fact there was some progress to be made, based on 1:1 tuition with a tutor/me, but the maths groups in which she was placed, were entirely right. She would never have been able to manage the "top" group in year 3 and would have been bored by the "age appropriate" group in year 5.
The school hadn't really thought much about my DD's lack of progress in maths between year 2 and 3, possibly because she was still on target to get a level 4 at end year 6 and children don't progress in a linear way. Perhaps they should have done, because it became clear that with a bit of extra help from me and the tutor, she progressed leaps and bounds and went up 4 sub groups that year. However, in my view, it is not only the school's responsiblity to check progress.
One of the biggest problems for a teacher with 32 children is to know exactly what is happening with each child, especially when some of the children will obviously need quite a bit of attention, whether it is to manage behavioural difficutlies/other learning difficulties. The range of abilities in a mixed abilities class is, as you say, very great and dificult to manage even with "differentiated" teaching. There are also those parents who seem to think that their children are really gifted and that the school is not helping them to achieve their best. There are probably quite a few of those in my DD's school as it is in an area which is stuffed full of the "chattering classes", and no one sends their kids to private school, because our primary is so good (and very oversubscribed).
It seems to me though that we should address the parents' responsiblities in this. Why is it solely the school's responsiblity to assess our child's aptitudes - isn't it supposed to be a contract between parents and school to get the most out of our kids? My experience is that the primary school has always helped us to promote out DDs.
Mystery - I think that you have had a very difficult time - but I would hope that it was not the norm, certainly it is not my experience, at least of primary school.
I am just worried that at our local secondary school will not provide the same education experience that the primary has. The school is run by a headmistress who has the mantra of "comprehensive education for all" - which means, to her, that there is no setting in any subject except maths and differentiated teaching in everything else. The school is ofsted "good", but as it is fed by a large number of professional families, the results (which are pretty average, but lauded by the school) are actually lower than they should be in my opinion. Friends of mine, with clever kids there are tearing their hair out - the work is set at an average level - they are given extension after extension work and are feeling really bored.
If my DD does not get into GS (only 1 on offer, and super selective and of course, we do have the issue with maths still - she's just not that consistent frankly), then we may need to think about selling the house to fund private schooling. I'm not sure that my DD who is currently a top 5a in English is going to get on teaching those struggling in her class at the comprehensive (apparently this is what happens - the best mentor the least able). How is this going to stretch her?
The school hadn't really thought much about my DD's lack of progress in maths between year 2 and 3, possibly because she was still on target to get a level 4 at end year 6 and children don't progress in a linear way. Perhaps they should have done, because it became clear that with a bit of extra help from me and the tutor, she progressed leaps and bounds and went up 4 sub groups that year. However, in my view, it is not only the school's responsiblity to check progress.
One of the biggest problems for a teacher with 32 children is to know exactly what is happening with each child, especially when some of the children will obviously need quite a bit of attention, whether it is to manage behavioural difficutlies/other learning difficulties. The range of abilities in a mixed abilities class is, as you say, very great and dificult to manage even with "differentiated" teaching. There are also those parents who seem to think that their children are really gifted and that the school is not helping them to achieve their best. There are probably quite a few of those in my DD's school as it is in an area which is stuffed full of the "chattering classes", and no one sends their kids to private school, because our primary is so good (and very oversubscribed).
It seems to me though that we should address the parents' responsiblities in this. Why is it solely the school's responsiblity to assess our child's aptitudes - isn't it supposed to be a contract between parents and school to get the most out of our kids? My experience is that the primary school has always helped us to promote out DDs.
Mystery - I think that you have had a very difficult time - but I would hope that it was not the norm, certainly it is not my experience, at least of primary school.
I am just worried that at our local secondary school will not provide the same education experience that the primary has. The school is run by a headmistress who has the mantra of "comprehensive education for all" - which means, to her, that there is no setting in any subject except maths and differentiated teaching in everything else. The school is ofsted "good", but as it is fed by a large number of professional families, the results (which are pretty average, but lauded by the school) are actually lower than they should be in my opinion. Friends of mine, with clever kids there are tearing their hair out - the work is set at an average level - they are given extension after extension work and are feeling really bored.
If my DD does not get into GS (only 1 on offer, and super selective and of course, we do have the issue with maths still - she's just not that consistent frankly), then we may need to think about selling the house to fund private schooling. I'm not sure that my DD who is currently a top 5a in English is going to get on teaching those struggling in her class at the comprehensive (apparently this is what happens - the best mentor the least able). How is this going to stretch her?
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Thanks to all for a great set of posts. From what has been said I get the picture that:
a) There are plenty of examples of movements between sets being observed, particulalry in early years, but personal examples of movement upwards in the juniors all seem to have been as a result of extra help outside of school.
b) In thoery it should be possible, but there are plenty of reasons why it may not happen in practice so a big risk if you don't do anything.
c) Your child may not be as bright as you think they are and even with extra help won't make the top set.
The big surprise for me were the views that some schools seem to decide very early on what a child's capabilities are. I had thought that those in education considered the 11+ unfair as it labelled a child at age 11. It seems, however, that many are happy to label children at a much younger age!
a) There are plenty of examples of movements between sets being observed, particulalry in early years, but personal examples of movement upwards in the juniors all seem to have been as a result of extra help outside of school.
b) In thoery it should be possible, but there are plenty of reasons why it may not happen in practice so a big risk if you don't do anything.
c) Your child may not be as bright as you think they are and even with extra help won't make the top set.
The big surprise for me were the views that some schools seem to decide very early on what a child's capabilities are. I had thought that those in education considered the 11+ unfair as it labelled a child at age 11. It seems, however, that many are happy to label children at a much younger age!
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Hi WW. You made this comment:
The children I am thinking of, often attend tutors and their parents are very supportive of homework, often notes are added to say they have made children redo work, because the first attempt was not good enough, could they have extra etc. I don't think I have ever been successful in convincing these parents that their children are achieving their maximum and should be praised.
Whilst I agree that children should not be stressed or put under pressure by their parents I find your comments (I've put in bold) concerning. They suggest to me that you believe certain children to have reached their limit? No one in school is operating anywhere near the 'ceiling' of their ability, ability does not have a ceiling (unless their are learning impairments and even then children can often go on to do better than expected). Your views highlight my fear that some teachers decide when children are very young whether they are 'quick' or 'slow', 'bright' or 'dim' and once they've made this decision it's unlikely to be rescinded.
If a child such as the one you describe, operating at their 'maximum' and the sort that worked hard, suddenly smashed targets and expectations IMO it is likely this would be put down to a surge of effort rather than innate ability (that hadn't previously shown itself). You might see them as one of your over achieving, weaker students? The danger might then be that this child wouldn't 'believe' going forward. I've seen this happen in the classroom in fact: 'Mrs X always thought I was a bit dim, pushed forward by my parents, Mum always said I had it in me but Mrs X didn't think I was as bright as Jim & Roger. So I don't see how I can be really. Mrs X saw that I struggled sometimes and I got out of my depth, which just proves I am not clever? Cause everyone knows if you are clever the answers just come to you? So those marks on my 11 plus NVR and VR papers must be a fluke, Mum, really I am just not very bright'. You get my drift
I think it is so important, even if some small fraction of 'ability' is fixed, we remember than so much isn't. I think it's so vital that rather than teachers thinking certain children are less able and have reached their 'maximum' they believe that minds are infinitely elastic and expandable, muscles to be stretched not buckets to be filled.
As Lauren Resnick says:
Students who, over an extended period of time are treated as if they are intelligent, actually become so. If they are taught demanding content, and are expected to explain and find connections as well as memorise and repeat, they learn more and learn more quickly. They think of themselves as learners. They are able to bounce back in the face of short term failures.
The children I am thinking of, often attend tutors and their parents are very supportive of homework, often notes are added to say they have made children redo work, because the first attempt was not good enough, could they have extra etc. I don't think I have ever been successful in convincing these parents that their children are achieving their maximum and should be praised.
Whilst I agree that children should not be stressed or put under pressure by their parents I find your comments (I've put in bold) concerning. They suggest to me that you believe certain children to have reached their limit? No one in school is operating anywhere near the 'ceiling' of their ability, ability does not have a ceiling (unless their are learning impairments and even then children can often go on to do better than expected). Your views highlight my fear that some teachers decide when children are very young whether they are 'quick' or 'slow', 'bright' or 'dim' and once they've made this decision it's unlikely to be rescinded.
If a child such as the one you describe, operating at their 'maximum' and the sort that worked hard, suddenly smashed targets and expectations IMO it is likely this would be put down to a surge of effort rather than innate ability (that hadn't previously shown itself). You might see them as one of your over achieving, weaker students? The danger might then be that this child wouldn't 'believe' going forward. I've seen this happen in the classroom in fact: 'Mrs X always thought I was a bit dim, pushed forward by my parents, Mum always said I had it in me but Mrs X didn't think I was as bright as Jim & Roger. So I don't see how I can be really. Mrs X saw that I struggled sometimes and I got out of my depth, which just proves I am not clever? Cause everyone knows if you are clever the answers just come to you? So those marks on my 11 plus NVR and VR papers must be a fluke, Mum, really I am just not very bright'. You get my drift
I think it is so important, even if some small fraction of 'ability' is fixed, we remember than so much isn't. I think it's so vital that rather than teachers thinking certain children are less able and have reached their 'maximum' they believe that minds are infinitely elastic and expandable, muscles to be stretched not buckets to be filled.
As Lauren Resnick says:
Students who, over an extended period of time are treated as if they are intelligent, actually become so. If they are taught demanding content, and are expected to explain and find connections as well as memorise and repeat, they learn more and learn more quickly. They think of themselves as learners. They are able to bounce back in the face of short term failures.
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Yes, the whole thing about some teacher's expectations and their views of parents is a bit scary - and I am a teacher myself. It gives me a shiver down my spine. If I judged things wrong with certain children, it was to expect lower grades than they ultimately turned out with. But luckily (with one exception) it did not result in any difference at all to the level of the material they received in the classroom, or the questions or dialogue I had with them (I'm not talking primary here).
Teachers only see the tip of the iceberg where a child is concerned and can be wrong in either direction about any particular child. If a parent has high expectations and is willing to do something I would think - great - let's work with them.
Like Wonderwoman, I personally would hope that a parent would never ask a child to re-do homework, unless they had deliberately made a bad job of it, or keep them slogging away at something they were really not capable of, but a classroom teacher might be able to provide some stuff for the keen parent of the apparently weaker child to work on with their child which would be of benefit, and not turn the child off learning, and which could include praise too.
I know plenty of examples of people who teachers have thought were absolutely not capable of what they went on to do extremely well. This was not a case of late development, or a sudden and unlikely increase in IQ. It was teachers who got it WRONG. We all do. And the current methods of regular pupil assessment and target setting which happen from the early years onwards will have helped some types of kids who fell through the net before, but have resulted in a small number of children who can be misjudged for many years.
Teachers only see the tip of the iceberg where a child is concerned and can be wrong in either direction about any particular child. If a parent has high expectations and is willing to do something I would think - great - let's work with them.
Like Wonderwoman, I personally would hope that a parent would never ask a child to re-do homework, unless they had deliberately made a bad job of it, or keep them slogging away at something they were really not capable of, but a classroom teacher might be able to provide some stuff for the keen parent of the apparently weaker child to work on with their child which would be of benefit, and not turn the child off learning, and which could include praise too.
I know plenty of examples of people who teachers have thought were absolutely not capable of what they went on to do extremely well. This was not a case of late development, or a sudden and unlikely increase in IQ. It was teachers who got it WRONG. We all do. And the current methods of regular pupil assessment and target setting which happen from the early years onwards will have helped some types of kids who fell through the net before, but have resulted in a small number of children who can be misjudged for many years.
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turtleglos
- Posts: 455
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:04 pm
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Reading these posts I feel even more lucky in my dcs local state primary.
My ds1 picks things up very quickly, yet he seemed to have forgotten most of what he knew at the end of year 2 by the time he had finished yr 4! I was not a very happy mummy yet kept ds1 with the school as they get some of the best sat results in the country(the only measure we knew about). He quickly remembered everything in yr 5 when they started moving the dcs forward again and is now doing work I remember doing in secondary school!
My ds2 has had no desire to do well at school until the last 6 months. He is now in yr 4 and the same teachers as ds1 had are doing the same work as ds1 had. For ds2 this has brought about an amazing change in both his attitude and ability. He is becoming much more confident as a result and catching up with his peers.
I feel confident that he will be able to achieve the same level of knowledge(although about different subjects and with better handwriting), as ds1 by the time he has finished yr 5 despite his early lack of progress.
Having dcs at both ends of the scale going into yr 3 has totally changed my perspective.
My ds1 picks things up very quickly, yet he seemed to have forgotten most of what he knew at the end of year 2 by the time he had finished yr 4! I was not a very happy mummy yet kept ds1 with the school as they get some of the best sat results in the country(the only measure we knew about). He quickly remembered everything in yr 5 when they started moving the dcs forward again and is now doing work I remember doing in secondary school!
My ds2 has had no desire to do well at school until the last 6 months. He is now in yr 4 and the same teachers as ds1 had are doing the same work as ds1 had. For ds2 this has brought about an amazing change in both his attitude and ability. He is becoming much more confident as a result and catching up with his peers.
I feel confident that he will be able to achieve the same level of knowledge(although about different subjects and with better handwriting), as ds1 by the time he has finished yr 5 despite his early lack of progress.
Having dcs at both ends of the scale going into yr 3 has totally changed my perspective.
Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will think it is stupid.
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Well, I'm one of those parents who occasionally makes their son do their homework over (quite frequently, in fact!). I've never done that with our daughter, which might offer a clue as to what triggers itmystery wrote:Like Wonderwoman, I personally would hope that a parent would never ask a child to re-do homework
.Mike
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Unless we are considering children with learning difficulties I think parental expectations and attitude to the school play an enormous part in what children achieve at school (primary school). At the end of the day all a child wants do do is make their parents happy, if a child hears parents making negative comments about their class teacher or school this has an enormous psychological effect on the child, (if a child thinks their parent doesn't like the teacher or says the teacher is rubbish the child will want to make their parent happy by proving this to be correct.)
If a parent lets the child know that they dont expect the teacher to move them up a group or give them more difficult work then the child will respond by proving their parent right and not making as much effort and therefore remaining in the lower group.
If a parent lets the child know that they dont expect the teacher to move them up a group or give them more difficult work then the child will respond by proving their parent right and not making as much effort and therefore remaining in the lower group.
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Agree guest 201, children have a habit of living up to parents and teachers expectations, whatever these may be.
Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
Mystery, I was one of those children. . I won't let the same thing happen to my children.
I recently found a boy at my primary school has been incredibly successful and sold his company for millions. We shared a sadistic & dishonest headmaster's remedial sessions in 'telling the time' for some strange reason, the boy was always rather brilliant so I am not sure why these were required. His face didn't fit, his brilliance rather 'unconventional' and he had an awful time of it, I was so happy to hear he'd been so successful in later life. My handwriting was always 'well below the standard we now expect' so it was assumed I must be rather dim too..
. I won't let the same thing happen to my children. I recently found a boy at my primary school has been incredibly successful and sold his company for millions. We shared a sadistic & dishonest headmaster's remedial sessions in 'telling the time' for some strange reason, the boy was always rather brilliant so I am not sure why these were required. His face didn't fit, his brilliance rather 'unconventional' and he had an awful time of it, I was so happy to hear he'd been so successful in later life. My handwriting was always 'well below the standard we now expect' so it was assumed I must be rather dim too.
.Re: Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?
I, too, have had to tell DS to do his HW again! Usually with the remark that he should spend longer than 5 mins this time.mike1880 wrote:Well, I'm one of those parents who occasionally makes their son do their homework over (quite frequently, in fact!). I've never done that with our daughter, which might offer a clue as to what triggers itmystery wrote:Like Wonderwoman, I personally would hope that a parent would never ask a child to re-do homework
Mike
When DD was in year 5 I had to get her to do her HW again too, but for the reason that she had not understood how to do it. I think this would make me an interfering parent, but once the mathematical concept had been explained in a way that she understood she was able to do her HW. We continued in this way throughout year 5 (each new topic) and she obtained the highest score in the year in her optional SATs at the end of the year. DD does not have an innate ability in maths and could not follow her teacher's explanations. DD believed that she was "stupid" at maths and part of her still does, despite subsequent teachers telling her the reverse. It is very difficult to overcome a built in belief.
