Level 6 in Year 5 - possible ?

[berks_mum]

In my opinion SATS are a bit of a farce, a friend of mine said her son got level six in maths but he is not a level 6, Apparently, because it is a small school the class teacher would walk around during the exam helping the children!!!

That is shocking. Wasn't the teacher penalised for doing that.

Her son is now at secondary school where his predicted grades (based on his SATS) were quite unattainable for him!!

[yoyo123]

It is not worth risking it, the penalties are too high. However, teachers/adult helpers can read the question for maths and SPAG papers if asked.

[Daogroupie]

One foolish cheating teacher in a small school hardly makes an exam sat by every Y6 student in every state school in the country into a farce. I am amazed none of the students or parents have reported this extraordinary behaviour but there must be a liimit as to how much actual help you could really give one student in the middle of an exam room full of students. DG

[wonderwoman]

I know lots of Y5's who are already on Level 6 English and probably even more if their teachers were able to assess them properly. Primary school teachers do not have to have an English or Maths degree or even A levels in these subjects so it starts to become a problem. DG

How do you know this? Are you an experienced primary teacher? Are you experienced at assessing pupils' work. And the rest I find insulting - plenty of primary teachers do hold degrees in English, maths, physics etc.

I agree with G55 breadth of study and extension work is far more interesting for talented mathematicians. Nrich is a great site.

[diseyp]

My son goes to a 3 form entry Primary school and he has been getting 100% in the level 3 - 5 maths since year 5 (as have several others) they have just done SATS this week - with 3 - 5 for all and Level 6 for Reading , Maths and GAPS for the top 10 or so (as far as I can tell) - it is a standard school in an OK area with approx. 5 kids out of the 90 odd getting a GS place..

[Daogroupie]

Most state primaries do not have specialist Maths and English teachers. They have degree educated teachers who have been hired to teach the NC. But there is no requirement to have an English or Maths degree to be a Y5 or Y6 teacher or even to have A levels in Maths or English. The requirement is to have a degree. There are plenty of Y6 teachers who have an English or Maths degree and plenty who do not. In some schools another teacher in the school who does have an English degree or has been on a training course will run lessons for the L6 applicants. In other schools the Y6 teacher will do it. The OP asked the question what happened to a student who comes into Y6 on L5A. There is no one answer to this question. I know of students who are being taught L6 by the Y6 teacher, I know of students who are going to another teacher in the school to be taught L6 and I know of students at schools where nobody was given the chance to take any L6 papers and nothing beyond L5 is offered. I also know students who have been taken out of their primary at the end of Y5 and moved elsewhere because they were not being challenged enough. No student should be getting 100% in Y5 on work they will have to repeat for another year. I know students who are resting on their laurels in Y6 quite happy not to progress and others who are unhappy with the situation. I would suggest that anyone with a Y5 dc who is preparing for a selective education might want to find out what their school's policy will be for a 5a student entering Y6. Our old school was very clear on the topic. The Y6 teacher was focused on bringing up the L3's and L4's and would not spend any time on any of the L5's. Their job would be to help the other students. I hope your school has a more supportive approach. DG

[mystery]

Yes, I agree. I think that the answer to berksmum question is complex. If it was the school that got the child to this level of accomplishment in year 5 and there are other children who the school has educated this successfully in the same class there is a chance that year 6 will further develop her knowledge and skills. However, if it is home that go the child this far and she is the only one then there is more chance year 6 will be a waste of time.

A lot of school years are a waste of space for us - and not because her levels are particularly high. Just because more goes on at school which contributes to forgetting than contributes to learning.

[wonderwoman]

Most state primaries do not have specialist Maths and English teachers. They have degree educated teachers who have been hired to teach the NC. But there is no requirement to have an English or Maths degree to be a Y5 or Y6 teacher or even to have A levels in Maths or English. The requirement is to have a degree. There are plenty of Y6 teachers who have an English or Maths degree and plenty who do not. Our old school was very clear on the topic. The Y6 teacher was focused on bringing up the L3's and L4's and would not spend any time on any of the L5's. Their job would be to help the other students. I hope your school has a more supportive approach. DG

I would say primary school teachers are specialist maths and English teachers - this is their job to give pupils an outstanding start to their education. Anyone with a good degree should have the knowledge and understanding of maths and English to teach able Y6s. However the situation is changing, degrees are no longer needed to teach in many schools, not just independent schools anymore and I have met a secondary maths teacher who had worked as a TA and completed a one year part time degree for TAs and was embarking on a GTP and had never done A levels. She may have been brilliant, who knows?

The teaching you describe above is shocking, if it is really true. It is vital to move L3 to a genuine L4 to ensure pupils can make the best start to their secondary career, so that is very important. However all schools have to demonstrate ALL pupils make good or better progress so even the brightest should be challenged.

The type of child described by the OP is unusual. Not many pupils are genuinely 5As at the beginning of Y5. They may get 100% on a 3 - 5 paper - that is not uncommon at all, because there are hardly any level 5 questions on them. Remember a genuine level 5a reader and writer should be writing with the level of maturity and language of an average Y9 and commenting on literature in a similarly sophisticated way. It would be very difficult to cover enough of the maths curriculum to truly achieve this level at the beginning of Y5.
All good primary teachers are adept at planning for and teaching a wide range of abilities.

[berks_mum]

The type of child described by the OP is unusual. Not many pupils are genuinely 5As at the beginning of Y5. They may get 100% on a 3 - 5 paper - that is not uncommon at all, because there are hardly any level 5 questions on them. Remember a genuine level 5a reader and writer should be writing with the level of maturity and language of an average Y9 and commenting on literature in a similarly sophisticated way. It would be very difficult to cover enough of the maths curriculum to truly achieve this level at the beginning of Y5.

How can we know if a child is genuinely level 5 (if not the exam results).
Here is some background :
First half of Autumn term, Year 5 did 4 past years' SATS papers (level 3 to 5) for maths. Some achieved 5A for all 4 papers whereas some of them achieved a combination of 5B/5A. Those who got 5A for 3 or more papers were told to be on level 5A. They occupy the first two sets. 5Bs are in set 3. I was also under the impression that the child entering Yr5 on 5A is unusual rather than norm. However 12 children entering Yr5 on level 5A surprised me. Hence the question, what do these children learn in Yr5/6 then - level 6 stuff, more level 5 practice or help others ?
Don't know the literacy situation. Will try to find out more.

ps. This one of the least popular local schools( within bottom 4) in 'Requires Improvement' category. Not sure if Ofstead reports reflect much more than just academic side of the school.

[moved]

Thank goodness there will be no more levels next year, apart from yrs 2 and 6. The new maths curriculum is significantly tougher and makes it clear that all children should have equal opportunities. The high attainers should be given interesting, open-ended problems to solve and the lows materials to support them.

Cheating in the SATs is investigated by the STA and evidence of it should be reported. It is entirely unfair on all the schools that play by the rules and as mentioned gives secondaries an unreliable impression of the child. It also makes their value added rather tough to obtain.

One of my inner city primaries was monitored this year by the local council, may I suggest that someone contacts the council with the allegations of cheating so that the school can be monitored in the future.