Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
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Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
A good standardised test of decoding would include very carefully selected non-words and real words. The year 1 test is a bit cheap and cheerful but does this - but only covers simpler "alphabetic code".
It is, of course, possible with any test that a child flunks it on the day for a multitude of reasons. But teachers would have other information about the child's decoding skills to know if this was a one off bad day or not.
I presume, probsnaive, that other reliable information shows that your daughter is still lacking some basic and useful phonic skills and knowledge.
Michael Rosen is a great children's writer but a lot of the stuff he writes about phonics teaching and the phonics screening check is maybe exaggerated or ill-informed or because he has only experienced it done badly perhaps.
It is, of course, possible with any test that a child flunks it on the day for a multitude of reasons. But teachers would have other information about the child's decoding skills to know if this was a one off bad day or not.
I presume, probsnaive, that other reliable information shows that your daughter is still lacking some basic and useful phonic skills and knowledge.
Michael Rosen is a great children's writer but a lot of the stuff he writes about phonics teaching and the phonics screening check is maybe exaggerated or ill-informed or because he has only experienced it done badly perhaps.
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Many professionals don't agree with the phonics test:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ary-pupils" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ukla.org/news/story/phonics_ ... e_readers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 64917.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Off topic but relevant]
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ary-pupils" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ukla.org/news/story/phonics_ ... e_readers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 64917.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Off topic but relevant]
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Yes, many professionals disagree or agree with all kinds of different things which are currently used in education.
However, it is very useful to be able to have a logical bash at decoding a word that you have not seen written down before or that you don't yet instantaneously recognise on first glance. Phonics skills help to enable this.
The very basic year 1 check was designed to help identify those children that may need mire intensive phonics teaching. It is a fairly crude screening check and certainly not 100 percent accurate, but, in a school that isn't already on the ball in the teaching of reading it will help to identify ( with a margin of error either way) those children who need more help learning to decode.
However, it is very useful to be able to have a logical bash at decoding a word that you have not seen written down before or that you don't yet instantaneously recognise on first glance. Phonics skills help to enable this.
The very basic year 1 check was designed to help identify those children that may need mire intensive phonics teaching. It is a fairly crude screening check and certainly not 100 percent accurate, but, in a school that isn't already on the ball in the teaching of reading it will help to identify ( with a margin of error either way) those children who need more help learning to decode.
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PROBSNAIVE
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:43 pm
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Thanks both. dd4 is my youngest and 3 elder dd's all all went to the same primary and are avid readers and had no problems at all with reading. Dd4 from an early age was always very reluctant to look at words and much preferred make up her own stories looking at the pictures! At nursery she managed to get other children to write her name for her so she didn't have to! The school put a lot of this down to age and something she would overcome. When I asked if it was more dyslexic traits, at the start of year 2, her class teacher felt it was not typical of that at that point.
This year there has been more 121 support which has improved her reading. She is reading Pm level 10 at the moment. She read beautifully this evening.
The school uses the read write inc programme for literacy.
There were a lot of tests done, I don't have the report to hand. But they did identify the specific letters and pre fixes, sounds she was having difficulty with.
It perhaps wasn't what they were saying in the meeting that was overwhelming but rather the realization that my bright bubbly daughter wasn't just going to grow out of this. Perhaps also the feeling of guilt that maybe I hadn't done enough for her already.
I realise I can't dwell on these thoughts and need to move on and focus on trying to help her as best I can. Will look at the suggestions to see what we can work on at home.
This year there has been more 121 support which has improved her reading. She is reading Pm level 10 at the moment. She read beautifully this evening.
The school uses the read write inc programme for literacy.
There were a lot of tests done, I don't have the report to hand. But they did identify the specific letters and pre fixes, sounds she was having difficulty with.
It perhaps wasn't what they were saying in the meeting that was overwhelming but rather the realization that my bright bubbly daughter wasn't just going to grow out of this. Perhaps also the feeling of guilt that maybe I hadn't done enough for her already.
I realise I can't dwell on these thoughts and need to move on and focus on trying to help her as best I can. Will look at the suggestions to see what we can work on at home.
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Just did long reply that got lost in the ether.
From what you have said I am surmising that:
- school is only following the RWI reading scheme ( reading and Get Writing) in a very partial way
- they are mixing it with whole word approaches to reading
- their approach worked well for your older three but is not suiting your younger child
- their reading recovery type method may not work well for her either .... or whatever their intervention methods are --- she's been on their alert list since being identified as needing help from the year 1 phonics check result (and they should have known prior to that) but despite whatever the extra is that they have provided she is currently PM10 - around that of a six year old indicating that either their methods are poor or there is some other undiscovered difficulty ......... too easy to label things as "dyslexia" - what does it mean - no agreed definition or clear cause just a scientific sounding word for difficulty with words
- they have not involved you in the kind of work that RWI handbook would suggest is completed at home nor taught you, as parent, the techniques that RWI uses for decoding words and encoding (spelling)
- your daughter needs to learn more grapheme-phoneme correspondences (GPCs) and use the ones she does know more consistently
- she needs more practice sounding out and blending words that she is not familiar with but that use GPCs that she already knows
- she needs more practice in segmenting words for spelling and using the GPCs she does know for reading in spelling relevant words
- for her she may just be "too young" -- but without seeing what she is like in the round this is very hard to say from a distance and can lead to people sitting back until it becomes demoralising for the child - the parent just expects it to "click" when they have reached a magic age but the child needs some clear and consistent teaching for it every to happen
These are the things that most likely would help you greatly if you beg, borrow, steal or purchase them:
- RWI sound cards (there are small versions for home use on sale at Amaxxx)
- the teachers' handbook for the RWI phonics scheme - especially for the RWI placement tests which shows you where she would be in the scheme both in terms of reading the story books and which set of sounds she needs to learn next, and also for the charts which show you which story books need which GPCs to have been learned beforehand
- the storybooks - not the home ones, the full sets that schools use --- it certainly was possible and hopefully still is to buy them in a cheaper black and white form if your school is funny about lending them out for home use
You can make huge progress very fast. I had terrible problems with our school that also says it uses RWI but did so in such an awful way it would be better if they didn't. They relied on the majority of children being ones that picked up reading from parents pointing at words as they read together at home. Some children (quite often the more logical souls in my experience) do not pick up reading this way for various reasons. One of my children was way more interested in doing Lego while I read to her and looking at any really good pictures rather than looking at the words while I read so this method would never have worked.
So I took it into my own hands, frustration levels dropped significantly and they both learned to read well pretty quickly.
Maybe if I hadn't done what I did at home my children would have been labelled "dyslexic" at some point ..... whatever it means is not very clear but as it is, they are both heading for 5s or 6s or the new curriculum equivalent by the end of year 6. You will get there.
Good luck.
From what you have said I am surmising that:
- school is only following the RWI reading scheme ( reading and Get Writing) in a very partial way
- they are mixing it with whole word approaches to reading
- their approach worked well for your older three but is not suiting your younger child
- their reading recovery type method may not work well for her either .... or whatever their intervention methods are --- she's been on their alert list since being identified as needing help from the year 1 phonics check result (and they should have known prior to that) but despite whatever the extra is that they have provided she is currently PM10 - around that of a six year old indicating that either their methods are poor or there is some other undiscovered difficulty ......... too easy to label things as "dyslexia" - what does it mean - no agreed definition or clear cause just a scientific sounding word for difficulty with words
- they have not involved you in the kind of work that RWI handbook would suggest is completed at home nor taught you, as parent, the techniques that RWI uses for decoding words and encoding (spelling)
- your daughter needs to learn more grapheme-phoneme correspondences (GPCs) and use the ones she does know more consistently
- she needs more practice sounding out and blending words that she is not familiar with but that use GPCs that she already knows
- she needs more practice in segmenting words for spelling and using the GPCs she does know for reading in spelling relevant words
- for her she may just be "too young" -- but without seeing what she is like in the round this is very hard to say from a distance and can lead to people sitting back until it becomes demoralising for the child - the parent just expects it to "click" when they have reached a magic age but the child needs some clear and consistent teaching for it every to happen
These are the things that most likely would help you greatly if you beg, borrow, steal or purchase them:
- RWI sound cards (there are small versions for home use on sale at Amaxxx)
- the teachers' handbook for the RWI phonics scheme - especially for the RWI placement tests which shows you where she would be in the scheme both in terms of reading the story books and which set of sounds she needs to learn next, and also for the charts which show you which story books need which GPCs to have been learned beforehand
- the storybooks - not the home ones, the full sets that schools use --- it certainly was possible and hopefully still is to buy them in a cheaper black and white form if your school is funny about lending them out for home use
You can make huge progress very fast. I had terrible problems with our school that also says it uses RWI but did so in such an awful way it would be better if they didn't. They relied on the majority of children being ones that picked up reading from parents pointing at words as they read together at home. Some children (quite often the more logical souls in my experience) do not pick up reading this way for various reasons. One of my children was way more interested in doing Lego while I read to her and looking at any really good pictures rather than looking at the words while I read so this method would never have worked.
So I took it into my own hands, frustration levels dropped significantly and they both learned to read well pretty quickly.
Maybe if I hadn't done what I did at home my children would have been labelled "dyslexic" at some point ..... whatever it means is not very clear but as it is, they are both heading for 5s or 6s or the new curriculum equivalent by the end of year 6. You will get there.
Good luck.
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PROBSNAIVE
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:43 pm
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Thank you mystery for taking the time to respond tot this. Much appreciated. Have made a note of the resources you have mentioned and will work on getting them.
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wonderwoman
- Posts: 511
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:07 pm
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
I would accept the advice to read to your DD as much as possible and resist the temptation to buy the same materials that school will use and repeat at home. In my experience, as a specialist Literacy intervention teacher dealing with underachievement, real quality time enjoying print in all its forms is something that is easily missed.
I am not saying you do not do this, but I know from my own family it is something that needs proper planning when a child doesn't take to reading as expected. Time is short in the evening after school and 5 mins at bedtime, although enjoyable, is not the right time to address reading issues. That is a time to enjoy the bedtime routine which will hopefully include a bedtime story.
The school should advise you how to support their intervention suitably at home, particularly ask them how to 'sound talk' with pure sounds.
I am not saying you do not do this, but I know from my own family it is something that needs proper planning when a child doesn't take to reading as expected. Time is short in the evening after school and 5 mins at bedtime, although enjoyable, is not the right time to address reading issues. That is a time to enjoy the bedtime routine which will hopefully include a bedtime story.
The school should advise you how to support their intervention suitably at home, particularly ask them how to 'sound talk' with pure sounds.
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justanothermother
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:43 pm
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Totally agree with mystery on phonics.
Just be aware that toe by toe was designed for adults. As mystery points out the programmes developed by Sound Foundations are better. Apples and Pears targets spelling and Bearing Away, Bear Necessities or Dancing Bears are decoding programmes. You will find more specific information on the SEN board of mumsnet.mystery wrote: You could also try a book called toe by toe but something like apples and pears might be better - it all depends on her current phonics .
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
Yes, as it was written for adults (the illiterate sector of the prison population) Toe by Toe needs to be used with caution and in small and useful chunks in a way that is motivating. It has the advantage of being cheap and easily delivered by a non-specialist - it was designed for a prisoner who had learned to read to buddy up with a non-reader and help them learn to read each day. But there are other synthetic phonics programmes that have been written since (Sounds Write for example) that are no doubt better but harder to purchase at a reasonable prices without going on a pricey course.
Debbie Hepplewhite's Phonics International website is useful to pay a visit to - particularly to listen to the "pure" sounds that Wonderwoman refers to. And Mr Thorne does Phonics is pretty good too - has its flaws as do they all but at age 7 she'd probably still find it amusing to use some of his little videos for gpcs that need polishing up or new ones.
That Mumsnet group sounds good too.
Yes, it's a problem if the child is tired after school and you don't want it to start into school number two. But if you have the time to inform yourself well I don't think you can do any damage having a go at helping your child at home with synthetic phonics as part of the path to becoming an accurate, interested and comprehending reader. Stories are fun; print is not if it is a fight to decode it.
There's a long summer holiday too not that far off. You can make a big leap then ready for year 3 when, in general, far less mainstream lesson time is set aside for the business of learning to read.
The RWI programme that Probsnave daughter is working through, in whatever way her school does it, is pretty much designed to be completed during year 1 or year 2 depending on the pace of the child. My school advised me not to buy RWI materials as then what they did at school "would not be fresh". However, they worked through scarcely any of the story books or get writing materials - even though my children were, most of the time, in the top groups (except when I discovered that one child had been put back down through the groups for not spelling everything accurately - which is not the way the course is designed).
If the scheme is administered according to the handbook, having the materials at home shouldn't really be a problem as if it results in much faster progress (which theoretically it should) and the school is using the placement test regularly in the way described in the handbook, the child will rapidly move up a lot of groups or off the e nd of the scheme ....... it isn't designed for every child to cover every scrap of material in the scheme. There's extra in there for children who need more consolidation than others.
I can't remember the exact timings, but RWI is designed on the basis of at least 1 hour per day, days a week from reception onwards. Our school did 20 minutes, if that, 4 days per week, if that. So really there was only time to go through some GPC flashcards for a term or so, and then limp through a few books for a term or so, then go through some GPC flashcards, then limp through another very small selection of books. It was most certainly not the way the scheme was designed.
I am not saying that Probsnave's school is doing something similar - but it could be. If it was doing something more along the lines of the handbook I think Probsnave would know more about it as her child is now in the the third year of it and it would have been a significant plank of her literacy education.
There are then further programmes in comprehension and spelling (our school does not have this and they don't look that great ----- but a lot better than some), and another learning to read course for older children who missed out earlier for some reason or other.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Debbie Hepplewhite's Phonics International website is useful to pay a visit to - particularly to listen to the "pure" sounds that Wonderwoman refers to. And Mr Thorne does Phonics is pretty good too - has its flaws as do they all but at age 7 she'd probably still find it amusing to use some of his little videos for gpcs that need polishing up or new ones.
That Mumsnet group sounds good too.
Yes, it's a problem if the child is tired after school and you don't want it to start into school number two. But if you have the time to inform yourself well I don't think you can do any damage having a go at helping your child at home with synthetic phonics as part of the path to becoming an accurate, interested and comprehending reader. Stories are fun; print is not if it is a fight to decode it.
There's a long summer holiday too not that far off. You can make a big leap then ready for year 3 when, in general, far less mainstream lesson time is set aside for the business of learning to read.
The RWI programme that Probsnave daughter is working through, in whatever way her school does it, is pretty much designed to be completed during year 1 or year 2 depending on the pace of the child. My school advised me not to buy RWI materials as then what they did at school "would not be fresh". However, they worked through scarcely any of the story books or get writing materials - even though my children were, most of the time, in the top groups (except when I discovered that one child had been put back down through the groups for not spelling everything accurately - which is not the way the course is designed).
If the scheme is administered according to the handbook, having the materials at home shouldn't really be a problem as if it results in much faster progress (which theoretically it should) and the school is using the placement test regularly in the way described in the handbook, the child will rapidly move up a lot of groups or off the e nd of the scheme ....... it isn't designed for every child to cover every scrap of material in the scheme. There's extra in there for children who need more consolidation than others.
I can't remember the exact timings, but RWI is designed on the basis of at least 1 hour per day, days a week from reception onwards. Our school did 20 minutes, if that, 4 days per week, if that. So really there was only time to go through some GPC flashcards for a term or so, and then limp through a few books for a term or so, then go through some GPC flashcards, then limp through another very small selection of books. It was most certainly not the way the scheme was designed.
I am not saying that Probsnave's school is doing something similar - but it could be. If it was doing something more along the lines of the handbook I think Probsnave would know more about it as her child is now in the the third year of it and it would have been a significant plank of her literacy education.
There are then further programmes in comprehension and spelling (our school does not have this and they don't look that great ----- but a lot better than some), and another learning to read course for older children who missed out earlier for some reason or other.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Re: Fischer Family Trust KS1 Wave 3
mystery - these are experts not just 'anybody' and I really think it is unlikely that so many experts are wrong. Phonics is just one way of teaching children to read ... it is the current 'vogue' just like ITA was at one point.mystery wrote:Yes, many professionals disagree or agree with all kinds of different things which are currently used in education.
However, it is very useful to be able to have a logical bash at decoding a word that you have not seen written down before or that you don't yet instantaneously recognise on first glance. Phonics skills help to enable this.
The very basic year 1 check was designed to help identify those children that may need mire intensive phonics teaching. It is a fairly crude screening check and certainly not 100 percent accurate, but, in a school that isn't already on the ball in the teaching of reading it will help to identify ( with a margin of error either way) those children who need more help learning to decode.
I'm sure you did not mean to imply you know better than all these educationalists that have studied teaching reading for many years.