views about the appeals system
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Re: views about the appeals system
What gets me this week, whilst trying to get past my appeal failure, is my panel were 3 retired heads, all pretty ancient, when asked what my son reads, one of the authors was Garth Nix, whom my son has approx 10 books on his shelf of, and the panel member said, "thats a new one on me" ???? They were all so out of date, stern, and in my opinion had no empathy what so ever to our cirumstances.
Now, a friend had 3 members, a business man, a random person (nothing to do with education) and someone who done a bit of adult education. Who were all so sympathetic to her daughters nerves, all with an age range 35-45. They asked her NOTHING about school. They obviously were coming at it from a different angle.
I ask how is this fair, i feel that i well and truly got the bum deal there.
Now, a friend had 3 members, a business man, a random person (nothing to do with education) and someone who done a bit of adult education. Who were all so sympathetic to her daughters nerves, all with an age range 35-45. They asked her NOTHING about school. They obviously were coming at it from a different angle.
I ask how is this fair, i feel that i well and truly got the bum deal there.
Re: views about the appeals system
We went through two appeals to the two "super-selective" boys' grammars in Essex. The members of both appeals panels I guess are retired but I think this may well be because it is not until retirement that many people have the time to sit on appeals panels.
One panel was arranged by the Education Authority, I'm still not entirely sure how it all works but we filled out a form and sent it to Essex CC and they arranged everything but the other seemed to be arranged by the school in that all correspondence went to the school address.
The chairs of both panels had extensive experience in education, each panel had someone who was also a JP and each panel had a retired teacher or head teacher.
At both appeals the panels were friendly, seemed engaged and certainly did their best to make us feel comfortable. If asked, I would have to say that the appeal we lost was by far the better, if that is the right way to put it, experience: please be aware appeal hearings are traumatic affairs.
I have to admit we feel deeply scarred by the whole experience. I couldn't watch the allocation-day piece on the programme last year about the "Big School Lottery" because I started to become so distressed and I am one of the least wobbly people you could meet.
The whole system and process seems to be deeply flawed but how on earth do you come up with something better. I still do not know how we won and yet we had everything you need in order to win one: amazing academics fully documented and supported by the head, three different mitigating factors of what I believe are the 4 Ds of appeals: death, disease, divorce, disruption (fortunately divorce was the one we didn't have or we wouldn't have got through it!) and a great big piece of luck.
I do think it is about time that some checks and balances were put into the exam system itself because I can't think of another exam you will ever take where you can't do something to right things if something goes wrong on the day. In Essex there are no "Head's reviews" such as I believe exist in other counties.
The thing that really brought home the injustice of the way in which appeals work in Essex however is the differing success rates for different schools. The 13 Essex selective schools are all in old buildings and they all take as many young people as they believe they can properly accommodate. The exam is the same for all schools and the method of allocation is the same. Why then is there one boys' grammar that has granted 15 appeals in the last 5 years while the two we appealed to KEGS and CRGS had had 5 and 0 successful appeals respectively? I can with reasonable confidence say that the difference is not because the parents appealing to the super-selectives have weaker cases or the prejudice to the schools is greater. From this point one can make lots of assumptions and probably most of them would be wrong. It comes down to the combination of panel members, parents and Presenting Officers and how it all comes together on the day. This is far too inconsistent and unfair. I do not how you iron out the inconsistencies however.
My rant against the system is over but to pick up on some things that were raised earlier in this thread:
Our son was privately educated. I have read that this can disadvantage you but our DS' head gave us lots of academic evidence and he came to both hearings with us. His evidence was cited in our letter as being significant in the panel's decision to grant our appeal. I suspect that very few heads in the state sector would give up two mornings to support a family and this certainly gave us an advantage. As mentioned elsewhere, a panel may feel the school can squeeze in one or two more without prejudice so there is undoubtedly an element of competition between parents appealing whether that is right or not. We came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't have won had our DS been in a state school.
In terms of preparation we did not use a tutor because our DS' prep school very gently started his class working towards VR (50% of the marks in Essex) in year 3, got the brightest group a year ahead in Maths by the end of year 5, and tailored reading and English to individual needs. In the run up to the 11 plus and Common Entrance the DCs were tested weekly on past papers and a wide range of suitable supporting material. The dilemma was whether to give as evidence our DS' results in these tests. We were worried that the panel might say that his poor performance in one paper (English) was even less explicable given the level of preparation. In the end we decided that anyone thinking any DC goes into the Essex 11 plus without significant preparation needs their bumps felt and were just open it. We did say our DS had had no additional help and his Head very calmly explained that the school "sensibly prepares children for the 11 plus without hot-housing them" which is the truth. I think our open and honest approach probably came through.
Anyway don't know if any of this helps. Truth is no one hearing will ever be the same as another. We were prepared for the first one but must admit even better prepared for the second and we lost the first on majority decision and won the second unanimously. And for Capers123, our DS has settled in amazingly well, has thrown himself into the life of the school, absolutely loves it and as for the disastrous English paper he got top mark (at CRGS a 1) for English on his first report. So if any of last year's panel members see this forum, thank you, he is definitely making the most of the opportunity you gave him.
One panel was arranged by the Education Authority, I'm still not entirely sure how it all works but we filled out a form and sent it to Essex CC and they arranged everything but the other seemed to be arranged by the school in that all correspondence went to the school address.
The chairs of both panels had extensive experience in education, each panel had someone who was also a JP and each panel had a retired teacher or head teacher.
At both appeals the panels were friendly, seemed engaged and certainly did their best to make us feel comfortable. If asked, I would have to say that the appeal we lost was by far the better, if that is the right way to put it, experience: please be aware appeal hearings are traumatic affairs.
I have to admit we feel deeply scarred by the whole experience. I couldn't watch the allocation-day piece on the programme last year about the "Big School Lottery" because I started to become so distressed and I am one of the least wobbly people you could meet.
The whole system and process seems to be deeply flawed but how on earth do you come up with something better. I still do not know how we won and yet we had everything you need in order to win one: amazing academics fully documented and supported by the head, three different mitigating factors of what I believe are the 4 Ds of appeals: death, disease, divorce, disruption (fortunately divorce was the one we didn't have or we wouldn't have got through it!) and a great big piece of luck.
I do think it is about time that some checks and balances were put into the exam system itself because I can't think of another exam you will ever take where you can't do something to right things if something goes wrong on the day. In Essex there are no "Head's reviews" such as I believe exist in other counties.
The thing that really brought home the injustice of the way in which appeals work in Essex however is the differing success rates for different schools. The 13 Essex selective schools are all in old buildings and they all take as many young people as they believe they can properly accommodate. The exam is the same for all schools and the method of allocation is the same. Why then is there one boys' grammar that has granted 15 appeals in the last 5 years while the two we appealed to KEGS and CRGS had had 5 and 0 successful appeals respectively? I can with reasonable confidence say that the difference is not because the parents appealing to the super-selectives have weaker cases or the prejudice to the schools is greater. From this point one can make lots of assumptions and probably most of them would be wrong. It comes down to the combination of panel members, parents and Presenting Officers and how it all comes together on the day. This is far too inconsistent and unfair. I do not how you iron out the inconsistencies however.
My rant against the system is over but to pick up on some things that were raised earlier in this thread:
Our son was privately educated. I have read that this can disadvantage you but our DS' head gave us lots of academic evidence and he came to both hearings with us. His evidence was cited in our letter as being significant in the panel's decision to grant our appeal. I suspect that very few heads in the state sector would give up two mornings to support a family and this certainly gave us an advantage. As mentioned elsewhere, a panel may feel the school can squeeze in one or two more without prejudice so there is undoubtedly an element of competition between parents appealing whether that is right or not. We came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't have won had our DS been in a state school.
In terms of preparation we did not use a tutor because our DS' prep school very gently started his class working towards VR (50% of the marks in Essex) in year 3, got the brightest group a year ahead in Maths by the end of year 5, and tailored reading and English to individual needs. In the run up to the 11 plus and Common Entrance the DCs were tested weekly on past papers and a wide range of suitable supporting material. The dilemma was whether to give as evidence our DS' results in these tests. We were worried that the panel might say that his poor performance in one paper (English) was even less explicable given the level of preparation. In the end we decided that anyone thinking any DC goes into the Essex 11 plus without significant preparation needs their bumps felt and were just open it. We did say our DS had had no additional help and his Head very calmly explained that the school "sensibly prepares children for the 11 plus without hot-housing them" which is the truth. I think our open and honest approach probably came through.
Anyway don't know if any of this helps. Truth is no one hearing will ever be the same as another. We were prepared for the first one but must admit even better prepared for the second and we lost the first on majority decision and won the second unanimously. And for Capers123, our DS has settled in amazingly well, has thrown himself into the life of the school, absolutely loves it and as for the disastrous English paper he got top mark (at CRGS a 1) for English on his first report. So if any of last year's panel members see this forum, thank you, he is definitely making the most of the opportunity you gave him.
Re: views about the appeals system
Sorry Gertie, I wasn’t implying that those who were successful were not worthy of offering a warranted opinion or a supportive word, just that they would not fully understand the emotional impact in quite the same way. However, I am sure that a supportive word from either ‘camp’ is appreciated the same by all.
And Firs, I too have pondered the ‘book question’, I know someone who reeled off a list of classics, that not even they had read, let alone their DC, because they felt that it was what the panel would want to hear, and while I myself was not asked, I was fully prepared to list the ‘teen girl’ novels my DD devours with great enthusiasm and interestingly, gets passed around between her and her GS destined pals. The only great expectations they have, is in their latest must-have fashion wish list!
There are many things we ponder on the process while coming to terms with such a huge rejection, and one thing I pondered was this..we all know the testing process does not always pick the brightest child, and the appeals process is random to say the least. This all contributes towards the inherent fact that GS is not some scholastic gathering of our brightest young minds, it is simply a gathering of many minds..the above average and well prepared, the barely average and over prepared, the super bright and rightfully there, and those who just got lucky. I took some comfort from that in a strange reasoned way.
Having helped my nephew prepare for his 11plus a few years back, I was surprised when he passed, we all were! Forget the ‘book question’, he doesn’t like reading. And given that his forte was deemed to lie in the maths side of things, he and 3 of his classmates dropped out of A level maths within 6 months, because it was too hard. And this is a top GS which has probably some of the best teachers in the country. I went to a dire inner London school and had to fight to do A level maths, because they had no teacher and I was the only contender. I had no teacher at all for many months, a supply teacher for 6 months whom I had to correct mistakes for on a weekly basis, and a very dear Bostock&Chandler text book for the remainder. I managed a respectable grade B, and that was more than 20 years ago, so probably equates to an A**** by today’s standards..well it will do when they add the rest
You get my point I am sure, and I am also sure that you have probably acknowledged as much already, but Firs, and anyone who is feeling the lows of an appeal rejection, our bright little stars will shine wherever they are placed
And Firs, I too have pondered the ‘book question’, I know someone who reeled off a list of classics, that not even they had read, let alone their DC, because they felt that it was what the panel would want to hear, and while I myself was not asked, I was fully prepared to list the ‘teen girl’ novels my DD devours with great enthusiasm and interestingly, gets passed around between her and her GS destined pals. The only great expectations they have, is in their latest must-have fashion wish list!
There are many things we ponder on the process while coming to terms with such a huge rejection, and one thing I pondered was this..we all know the testing process does not always pick the brightest child, and the appeals process is random to say the least. This all contributes towards the inherent fact that GS is not some scholastic gathering of our brightest young minds, it is simply a gathering of many minds..the above average and well prepared, the barely average and over prepared, the super bright and rightfully there, and those who just got lucky. I took some comfort from that in a strange reasoned way.
Having helped my nephew prepare for his 11plus a few years back, I was surprised when he passed, we all were! Forget the ‘book question’, he doesn’t like reading. And given that his forte was deemed to lie in the maths side of things, he and 3 of his classmates dropped out of A level maths within 6 months, because it was too hard. And this is a top GS which has probably some of the best teachers in the country. I went to a dire inner London school and had to fight to do A level maths, because they had no teacher and I was the only contender. I had no teacher at all for many months, a supply teacher for 6 months whom I had to correct mistakes for on a weekly basis, and a very dear Bostock&Chandler text book for the remainder. I managed a respectable grade B, and that was more than 20 years ago, so probably equates to an A**** by today’s standards..well it will do when they add the rest
You get my point I am sure, and I am also sure that you have probably acknowledged as much already, but Firs, and anyone who is feeling the lows of an appeal rejection, our bright little stars will shine wherever they are placed
