To Appeal or Not?

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Etienne
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by Etienne »

Just to add to Tolstoy's interesting post - if the Glos. 11+ is based solely on VR, then an appeal panel might be more interested in the CAT VR score than the CAT average.
Etienne
capers123
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Location: Gloucestershire

Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by capers123 »

Tolstoy wrote:Re CAT scores. I did some research a couple of years back. At Pates the average CAT score is 125, STRS it is 120 and for Crypt 115. You may be able to find similar information for SHS.
Interesting stats, but one question is 'should a child appealling have a CAT score equal to, or above, the average score for the pupils in that school, above the lowest scoring pupil, or somewhere else'? It's a question that can also crop up with in year appeals, where rather than doing an 11+, they sit papers also sat by the existing cohort.

It's rather difficult to give an answer, as it could be that the lowest scoring pupils are really struggling.

Panels are not (thankfully) given the range of CAT scores a school has in an average year, so we have to look at all the evidence.
Etienne wrote:Just to add to Tolstoy's interesting post - if the Glos. 11+ is based solely on VR, then an appeal panel might be more interested in the CAT VR score than the CAT average.
I tend to be interested in all of the CAT scores; it could be that a dyslexic child had great NVR or Quantitive score, and a lower VR may be given less emphasis in the light of other evidence (dyslexia in your case). A child with no other evidence may be looked on less favourably. The average score that Sara gives appear to be in the range for some of the grammars in Glos, even without dyslexia, but as for SHS, I don't know - parents never get given that information. What weight the SHS panel gives to the CAT scores is down to them.
Capers
Etienne
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by Etienne »

capers123 wrote:What weight the SHS panel gives to the CAT scores is down to them.
As I wrote further above:
The only opinion that matters, however, is what your particular appeal panel think of these scores.
I would also agree that it might depend on what sort of case the appellant wishes to make (e.g. that the child is normally very good at VR as evidenced by a CAT VR score, or that the child's academic strengths lie elsewhere as evidenced by QR/NVR scores).
Etienne
sarajtb
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by sarajtb »

I understand now what you're saying Mum23* about Action and A+. DD and I are going for a reassessment tomorrow morning with the EP. We had her first extensive assessment done last year. I will ask him about A and A+ and see what his views are. I am also wanting clarification on her processing speed as this is the crux of the matter. If he considers it severe, despite her overall dyslexia being mild, then I feel we have a case but if not then we probably don't.

Will keep you posted.
yoyo123
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Location: East Kent

Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by yoyo123 »

I am not sure that just having an assessment done qualifies as Action Plus. Not the way that I read it. The school has to show that it has done everything possible within its own resources , but that this is not enough. If a school copes well because of its provision then school action is sufficient. The plus bit is if an outside agency regular input eg speech and language or occupational therapist programme is needed.

A bit of a double edged sword really.

When the Code of Practice changed we had to work through case histories during the training. The case I remember was a boy with Downs Syndrome and global delay who was coping well because of the school's excellent provision. He was deemed School Action only as regular input/programmes were not needed from any outside agencies.
mum23*
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by mum23* »

yoyo I am not sure but can say that this is what happened to us.

My DD had only one formal assessment in Y4 with LA learning support. This said she had dyslexia. She then moved schools at the beginning of y5 but had no further outside agency involvement. From then on she had some one to one and group work with a TA. I wanted her to be seen again before high school but this never happened. My DD got extra time in the 11+. (Glos) The initial report (from y4) was sent to the grammar with a request for extra time which was granted. From this I assume she was A+ due to her EP report. I would suggest that her dyslexia is not severe but nevertheless is real and slows her down. She is on the SEN list at her GS and I have been told she will have a further assessment probably in Y9 in case she needs time added for GCSE. There was NEVER any extended involvement with agencies. I hope this might help Sarajtb. I know I am very happy with my DDs school, she loves it there and is doing well and I do feel that Sarajtb should have the same treatment we got if things are fair. Perhaps things have changed in the last 2 years?
Etienne
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by Etienne »

I'm looking at this purely from the point of view of an appeal, and I think there are three aspects an appeal panel ought to consider with regard to the dyslexia.

1. The Equality Act. Under this Act, as under previous disability legislation, the impairment does not have to be severe, but it does have to be more than minor.

I do have reservations about a blanket rule on the part of the admission authority that children requiring reasonable adjustments must at least be on School Action Plus. This could be one of the considerations to be taken into account, but I would have thought they should really be looking at all the evidence presented to them in a particular case.
However, this is not going to lead anywhere if the dyslexia is classed as minor.

2. Whether the correct procedures have been followed. I doubt that an appeal panel will actually want to get involved in whether a particular school should have put a child on School Action or School Action Plus, especially if the representative of the admission authority (as is likely) points out to the panel that the primary school did not itself appear to take any initiative in calling in outside support. The one thing that could make a difference here is if the primary school were to write a letter, acknowledging that it made a mistake and the child should have been on School Action Plus all along.

3. Extenuating circumstances. Dyslexia should certainly be taken into account as an extenuating circumstance for underperformance, and it's well worth pointing out to the panel that an EP had recommended extra time. The more substantial the dyslexia, of course, the easier it becomes to justify a wide gap between the score achieved and the score required.
Etienne
mum23*
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by mum23* »

Etienne I think that is a very helpful post. Maybe it is what is actually on the report that the GS see as to whether they give extra time? Rather than a blanket yes to anyone on A+. But I suppose that report has to be submitted to them perhaps with extra support from school senco requesting time whether DC is at A+ or School Action. They are not going to grant extra time lightly and I agree that they need proof.

I do think that because schools in this area do not involve themselves in 11+ then a parent would need to be totally aware of the rules governing these matters to instigate getting extra time by discussing this with primary school in plenty of time. Well in advance of test time. I had already had a DD take the 11+ although she did not need any extra time so I was at least familiar with the test procedure. If anyone is in a similar situation then make sure you discuss 11+ dyslexia issue in Y5 and send reports/ documents in plenty of time to the GS. The tests are only a month after the start of Y6.

Do you think a parent could say at an appeal that they were not fully aware of the SEN procedure for test arrangements?
Etienne
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by Etienne »

mum23* wrote:Maybe it is what is actually on the report that the GS see as to whether they give extra time? Rather than a blanket yes to anyone on A+.
I do hope so.
I do think that because schools in this area do not involve themselves in 11+ then a parent would need to be totally aware of the rules governing these matters to instigate getting extra time by discussing this with primary school in plenty of time. Well in advance of test time. I had already had a DD take the 11+ although she did not need any extra time so I was at least familiar with the test procedure. If anyone is in a similar situation then make sure you discuss 11+ dyslexia issue in Y5 and send reports/ documents in plenty of time to the GS. The tests are only a month after the start of Y6.
Sound advice! I also think parents shouldn't hesitate to write early on to the relevant admission authority to request full details of what exactly their policy is with regard to reasonable adjustments.

Purely as an example, here is the policy my LA published last year (it's probably been updated since to refer the Equality Act rather than the Disability Discrimination Act, but I suspect the essentials remain more or less the same):
http://www.buckstest.co.uk/assets/conte ... _Entry.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(NB: This is in a context where the LA controls most of the primary schools, and is also responsible for the 11+.)
Do you think a parent could say at an appeal that they were not fully aware of the SEN procedure for test arrangements?
Reasonable adjustments come under the Equality Act, so the starting point is whether the child's impairment is more than minor.

It is, I think, sufficient for the parent simply to make the panel aware of any possibility of a disability (as defined by the Equality Act) - and to provide any supporting evidence - because the panel then has a clear legal duty to have regard to the Act.

If there is any suggestion of a possible disability, I would suggest that the panel ought to proceed along the following lines:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b33

Thank you very much for your contributions to this thread, mum23* - it's been very interesting to read of your own experience of SEN and the 11+.
Etienne
mum23*
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Re: To Appeal or Not?

Post by mum23* »

I thought long and hard about GS for DD with dyslexia. Part of me thought she might get more help elsewhere but I also knew she was bright enough and is better at maths than DD1 who was already at a GS. Why should her dyslexia affect her chance of the school that would suit her? The school she wanted (a different GS to her sister) had other strengths that matched my DDs interests perfectly so I felt it was my duty to her to give her the best chance. I felt she had a good chance at passing with no adjustments but I think I might have regretted not asking if she had missed it by a few marks so I went ahead with the request.

In the event she scored well and probably did not need the time, however having it and sitting the test by herself with a nice invigilator certainly must have given her confidence and focus. And actually it might be that the adjustments actually did level the playing field.

My other advice to anyone in the same situation would be not to worry about other people and what they think or say...including suggestions that extra time is cheating. You know your DCs and their needs and you don't have responsibility for anyones elses DCs so stay calm and focussed and concentrate on that. I suppose that is why I wanted to reply to Sara. It is a bit of a fraught process at best so the advice and support of others is very helpful. I admire how much you and others help out. I don't think people realise until they go through it how anxious a time it can be. A parent of a child with dyslexia has probably already had lots of anxious times wondering what the problems with school work are about and trying to get some help.
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