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 Post subject: out of catchment appeal
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:13 pm 
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My DD missed out on a selective school because the min marks for an out of catchment place needed to be higher than those within catchment. DD scored higher than some of the in catchment children who have been offered a place.

Is this enough grounds for appeal, along with additional proof of academic ability. DD is a level 6 in maths and level 5 in english??


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Quote:
Is this enough grounds for appeal
I wouldn't risk putting it quite like that. Catchment children have priority because that is the system - and it's not a good idea to challenge the system!

The grounds for your appeal should be high academic ability.

If she was expected to score more highly than she did, that is a line of argument you could be putting forward, if there is evidence to support it.

If the school is up to its admission number (or could be up to its admission number as a result of appeals), you should also give reasons for wanting a place.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c2

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Etienne, If we made an appeal based on academic ability and why we want our child to go to the school, do we also have to establish why the school can accommodate an extra child? If so how do attempt to do this?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Jimjim, sorry just thought I'd chip in: you need to look at class sizes and find other times when they have exceeded their PAN and argue that their results didn't suffer. Good luck! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Thanks for you reply. How do we find out about class sizes and how does this help? Also if we find a year thats gone over PAN, which years result do we look at? For example if they went over PAN in 2010, do we look at exam results for summer 2011?

Sorry as you can see haven't got a clue about this.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:12 pm 
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jimjum wrote:
Etienne, If we made an appeal based on academic ability and why we want our child to go to the school, do we also have to establish why the school can accommodate an extra child? If so how do attempt to do this?
No, you don't actually have to do this. It is for the admission authority to satisfy the panel that an extra child would cause prejudice.

You do, however, have the right to ask questions, and I'm copying our advice below:
Quote:
After the admission authority has presented its case, there must be an opportunity for the panel and for parents to ask questions if they wish to do so.

i. It is perfectly reasonable for parents to say “We have no questions, thank you, because we do understand the case put forward by the authority”.

ii. It is perfectly reasonable for parents to ask for anything they have not understood to be explained. (Presenting officers sometimes forget that not everyone is going to understand some of the jargon and abbreviations used in education, even though there is a warning in the Code of Practice that the use of jargon is to be avoided.)

iii. It is perfectly reasonable for parents to ask a few probing questions such as “We see that the school has previously had to cope with one or two pupils above its admission number. Is there any hard evidence that this has caused prejudice?”

iv. However, it is rarely a good idea for parents to make long rambling speeches at this point, to ask endless questions in order to ‘create an impression’, to appear over-critical, to engage in ‘nitpicking’ (raising trivial points), or to mount an ‘all-out war’ on the admission authority’s case.

v. Bear in mind that an appeal panel usually has a lot of experience within it, and in all probability is more than capable of analysing the authority’s case without anyone else’s help. By all means ask a few short, probing questions at stage 1 to try and dent the authority’s case a bit, but it is rare for an authority to lose at stage 1. If they do lose, that is a bonus that will almost certainly happen without any intervention on the part of parents. If you spend too long worrying about stage 1, it will risk distracting from what in most instances really matters. The vast majority of appeals are won or lost at stage 2, the parent’s case, and this is where your focus should be.


The above is from section C of our Q&As.

I suggest it would be a good idea to read right through the Q&As:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeals/

When you've done that, come back with any further questions.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:56 pm 
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We have received a letter from my DD's yr 6 Form tutor to help us with our appeal. She has included most of the main points such as expected level 5 for sats and level 6 for maths. Gifted and talented for numeracy and in high ability groups for maths and literacy. There is also a mention that she has taken tests in QCA and non-statutory tests which have placed her in high ability group. However no marks are included for these tests, do we need to try and push the tutor to give individual scores?

Also there is no mention that her tutor 'supports the appeal' does this also make a difference? (she has just written a reference for my DD including quite a few positive comments.)

I have also spoken to an E.P about an accademic assessment, she did however mention that this is probably more useful in areas like Bucks as most schools there are selective, she felt it may not be worthwhile when making an appeal in Herts. Could you advise on this the school we wanted to appeal for is partially selective?

Thank-you


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Quote:
There is also a mention that she has taken tests in QCA and non-statutory tests which have placed her in high ability group. However no marks are included for these tests, do we need to try and push the tutor to give individual scores?
You do have a legal right to any information in your daughter's school record. I'm a bit doubtful, though, just how much marks in curriculum tests would mean to an appeal panel. Levels are probably more helpful. Or, if 'above average' (which could probably mean anything from 4a to level 6), it would be helpful to know whether the standard is well-above average.

Quote:
Also there is no mention that her tutor 'supports the appeal' does this also make a difference? (she has just written a reference for my DD including quite a few positive comments.)
If the focus of your appeal is academic/educational, it may well be sufficient for the current school to write about academic achievement. On the other hand, if there were strong social reasons why your daughter should attend the school in question, and these are matters that the form tutor has been involved in, I think one would probably expect a clear statement of support explaining why the school being appealed for would best meet her needs.

Quote:
I have also spoken to an E.P about an accademic assessment, she did however mention that this is probably more useful in areas like Bucks as most schools there are selective, she felt it may not be worthwhile when making an appeal in Herts. Could you advise on this the school we wanted to appeal for is partially selective?
No easy answer, because one can never be sure just how much weight an individual appeal panel will give any particular bit of evidence. It also depends on the sort of case you want to put forward. If, for example, the academic test comprised VR and maths, and you think the VR result was not really representative of her ability, then an EP report showing very superior verbal comprehension skills could be relevant, especially if you have little in the way of alternative evidence (e.g. a series of very high CAT VR scores). On the other hand, if it was in maths that she seems to have 'underperformed', confirmation from the current school of level 6 standard ought to be sufficient.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:27 am 
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Hi Etienne thank you for responding to my previous queries, the help and information from this forum has been really invaluable.

I read your post 'Appeals letter for Mary', can you confirm if the 11+ scores were taken from the Grammar school entrance exam? My DD sat entrance exams for 2 selective schools is it worth including results for both?

Do you think it is worth mentioning in our appeals letter details of our catchment area which has limited our choice of schools? We are thinking of including bullet points of the facts below but are not sure if the panel would disregard most of it as being irrelevant to the appeal?

There are 5 schools for which we live in the priority area. 4/5 have performed consistently below the LA average for the past 5 yrs, the other school has been below average for the past 3yrs and is now borderline average.
Our 3rd ranked school therefore was the nearest girls school which has been below average once in the past 5yrs and is now just above average (this is the school where my daughter has obtained a place).
The only way that my daughter could get a place at a good school with a proven track record, was to sit the entrance exam for partially selective schools (we were not in a financial position to move house).
Our appeal is for one of the 2 selective schools, my daughter performed very well in the exam and obtained a score which would have been high enough to obtain her an in catchment place but not an out of catchment place (only 3 places are offered outside catchment).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:02 am 
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Quote:
the help and information from this forum has been really invaluable.
Thanks - glad to hear it's been of assistance. :)

Quote:
I read your post 'Appeals letter for Mary', can you confirm if the 11+ scores were taken from the Grammar school entrance exam?
This was from Bucks where there is a single 11+ organised by the LA, and consisting of two VR papers of equal standard. It is relevant, therefore, irrespective of which Bucks grammar school parents are interested in.

Quote:
My DD sat entrance exams for 2 selective schools is it worth including results for both?
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... laneous#e2

Quote:
Do you think it is worth mentioning in our appeals letter details of our catchment area which has limited our choice of schools? We are thinking of including bullet points of the facts below but are not sure if the panel would disregard most of it as being irrelevant to the appeal?
I do understand where you're coming from, but this is an appeal for the school you want, not an appeal against the system, or against the available alternatives, so I certainly wouldn't take the initiative in raising these points. However, if at the hearing the panel want to broaden out the discussion and to ask about alternatives, then you're free to respond - but my advice would be to keep your answers as brief as possible.

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