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 Post subject: Oversubscription Appeal
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Please can you offer some advice.

My son passed an entrance exam for a grammar and we completed the CAF putting the school as first choice on 31st October. We were planning on moving house nearer to the school but had not done this in time for the change of address to be taken into account for the offers made on 1st March. As we changed address now and have all the relevent proof we were hoping that the school would make us an offer from the waiting list. We moved very close to the school and were number one on this list. I felt really positive as quite a few boys normally drop out to go to Indies.

However it has transpired that the school made more offers than the published PAN to allow for this and consquently no offers were made to the waiting list.

I am currently in the process of making an oversubscription appeal. Should the school have taken in account our change in address for any offers made above the PAN? We informed them in early Feb of our change.
Are there any rules around making offers above the PAN if they detriment anyone else's position?

My appeal also includes the reasons why I think my son suits this school but wondering if this is a point I should bring up.

Advice is much appreciated!

MM


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Welcome.

Good question!

Quote:
Should the school have taken in account our change in address for any offers made above the PAN? We informed them in early Feb of our change.
It wouldn't be lawful to reserve places, so I think the answer is going to be 'No' - but I do feel uneasy about offers above PAN. The Local Authority are meant to be co-ordinating admissions and making all the offers (as only they should know what the parental preferences are), so it might be worth giving them a ring and asking about this.

You could point out at appeal that you feel you've been disadvantaged (and try to win some sympathy from the panel!), but the main focus ought to be on reasons for wanting a place.

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Hi Etienne,

Thankyou. When I spoke to the LEA last week they said that my change in address could not be taken into account until after March 1st which I completely understand.
They also said that they offered the excess places at the request of the school - think it is a foundation school which does its own admissions. I will ring tomorrow and probe a bit further though about the excess offers.

I just wasn't sure about questioning the administration of the admissions within the appeal without it sounding like sour grapes but will try and word /phrase it constructively.

I am still hanging on the waiting list in position one but i think places are not released again until after appeals. I presume that if someone releases a place now then I will not get the place until after the appeals at which point successful qualification appeals that live closer could take priority (presuming they unsuccessful on oversubs and added to waiting list)?

Thanks for your advice
MM


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
They also said that they offered the excess places at the request of the school
Ah - you're a step ahead of me! :)
It may be difficult to get through at this busy time of year, but you could try contacting the ACE helpline to see what they think about this situation.
http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/about-ace/

Quote:
I just wasn't sure about questioning the administration of the admissions within the appeal without it sounding like sour grapes but will try and word /phrase it constructively.
I agree it needs handling with care so as not to alienate the panel! It's usually best to ask one or two questions very politely at stage one 'to help clarify what has happened' - and gently point out at stage 2 (with a wry smile) that you may have been unlucky!

Quote:
I am still hanging on the waiting list in position one but i think places are not released again until after appeals.
Once the late allocations have been done, I would have thought any places which become vacant should then be filled from the waiting list as they arise. Places shouldn't be 'reserved' for successful appeals.

Quote:
...... successful qualification appeals that live closer could take priority (presuming they unsuccessful on oversubs and added to waiting list)?
An appeal panel can only allow or dismiss an appeal - if they allow it, the child must be admitted (the waiting list doesn't come into it).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:25 pm 
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I will try and contact ACE tomorrow and will share their thoughts on the forum.

On your last point can you clarify if the following scenario is therefore incorrect:
I thought that if someone had not passed the examination they could be successful on the academic appeal but could lose the oversubs appeal in which case they would not automatically get a place but would be added to the waiting list along with others who had passed but not got a place.

MM


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
I thought that if someone had not passed the examination they could be successful on the academic appeal but could lose the oversubs appeal in which case they would not automatically get a place but would be added to the waiting list along with others who had passed but not got a place.
This is how it operates (currently) in Buckinghamshire, where there are two completely separate appeals (one in January/February to deal with qualification, and one in the summer term for oversubscription).


Most admission authorities, though, have a single appeal in the summer term where any issues to do with qualification and oversubscription will be considered at the same time. To be successful, therefore:
(1) a child would need to have passed the 11+ or to be deemed qualified at the appeal
and
(2) there needs to be a vacancy,
or the parental reasons for wanting a place have to outweigh any prejudice to the school (in which case numbers can go above PAN).

The appeal succeeds as a whole - or it doesn't. There's a single decision at the end of the appeal process.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:29 pm 
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I had this clarified earlier as going through an oversub appeal myself. Position on waiting list is irrelevant at appeal - it is down to the balance between your reasons for wanting a place against the prejudice to the school and ultimately your case against others. An appeal is either unsuccessful or not, its all or nothing, but for a non qualifier to be successful for an oversub school they have to argue academic grounds and reasons for wanting a place (the bit the qualified on the waiting list do), provided they do that the whole appeal will be successful and they will jump the queue. I assume then the panel look at both parts though and they have to 'pass' both bits for the appeal to be successful.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:20 am 
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Thanks Stocky/Etienne - Info on waiting list makes me feel better that it is unlikely that anyone can leapfrog me. However waiting list is no relevance to the appeal to I have to make a strong case and am struggling!

I tried to call ACE but could not get through after having it on redial for most of the morning.

I am in process of drafting my appeal letter so just wanted to clarify few items. Apologies if this has been asked before.

For stage one I have read that it is for the school to prove their case. I have been told that this will be done at my individual appeal.
- Will I get details of their case beforehand. I have to have my evidence in by 30th does that mean they must provide their evidence to me?
- Do I include some reasons why I think it will not prejudice the school in my initial appeal letter at which point I would not have seen their case?
- If I do and I state some performance statistics do I quote source or do I have to provide copies of source information in the evidence?

For Stage two.
I have bullet points for reasons why I think this is a more suitable school.
- Should I write a couple of lines below each to expand a little further or just to refer to reference letters etc and hope panel glean relevant information?

Thankyou in advance

MM

PS Etienne - I can't help but notice the times of your reply. Do you Sleep? :D


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Quote:
I tried to call ACE but could not get through after having it on redial for most of the morning.
I'm afraid they do suffer from 'overload' as the main appeals season approaches!

Quote:
For stage one I have read that it is for the school to prove their case. I have been told that this will be done at my individual appeal.
They're entitled to do it this way, but I'm inclined to think it's a bit cowardly of them not to want a group hearing with all the parents!

Quote:
- Will I get details of their case beforehand.
Yes - usually 7-10 days before the hearings.

Quote:
I have to have my evidence in by 30th does that mean they must provide their evidence to me?
In theory, whoever is putting together the school case should also be doing so by the 30th. Papers are then sent out to all parties (including the panel) a week or so before hearings begin.

Quote:
- Do I include some reasons why I think it will not prejudice the school in my initial appeal letter at which point I would not have seen their case?
No - just focus on your own case.

Quote:
- If I do and I state some performance statistics do I quote source or do I have to provide copies of source information in the evidence?
At the hearing, you will be invited to ask questions about the school case. I wouldn't provide copies of your sources, but you should say that you have the evidence with you if anyone wants to check it.

Try and avoid making lengthy statements or 'speeches'. Advice on stage 1 is here:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c1

Quote:
For Stage two.
I have bullet points for reasons why I think this is a more suitable school.
- Should I write a couple of lines below each to expand a little further or just to refer to reference letters etc and hope panel glean relevant information?
Ideally the evidence will speak for itself, but you might wish to expand a bit if (a) something requires explanation, or (b) there's a key point you want to single out as being of particular importance.

If you wish, for additional emphasis you could also single something out in the evidence by underlining it boldly. (Best not to use a highlighter as it probably won't look so good when photocopied.)

Quote:
PS Etienne - I can't help but notice the times of your reply. Do you Sleep? :D
Rarely! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:11 pm
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ahhhhh that makes it so much clearer for me. :idea:
I was wondering how on earth people got their letter on one page when including counter arguments for stage 1!

Thankyou so much for your advice.

Will update you and forum on any progress.

Many Thanks

MM
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