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 Post subject: Tutored?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: Gloucestershire
Be warned. When we look at appeals, we do like do know if the child has been tutored, and if so, how much.

If the pass mark is 200, yet the child achieved 198 and had been tutored for a year, we would be rather worried - especially if there was another child with 196 and an equally good reason who had not been tutored (or even did the practice papers, which really does happen).

"Unfair - my child did better on the day". I would counter that with "Unfair - your child's score of 198 was artificially inflated by quite a lot thanks to the tutor".

If your child didn't do well on the day, were tutored, and they have no real excuse (apart from what you make up), then your child would probably struggle with the work, be unhappy, hold the rest of the class back.

Where I live, as well as good grammars, we also have some cracking comprehensive schools (none of them are duff). One is a sports specialist, another an IT & performing arts, another just performing arts, another engineering and a language specialist. There are a lot of parents who don't send their child children to the grammars even though they would sail through the 11+. Your child may well be much happier & fulfilled at one of these schools. Please think of your child, not snob value!

Luckily for us, the tutored children had no good grounds for appeal this year, so didn't get through our 1st stage sort.

Now if your child just had a couple of sessions with a tutor or friend not to get them up to standard, but just to familiarise them with the test, that's a different matter - and does a teacher who works hard on the practice papers with their own child count as tutoring. Ah - the complexities of appeals!

Sorry to be negative - I'm quite nice in person!

Capers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:29 pm
Posts: 2049
Location: Wirral
Hi capers123,

What can I say to that but Thank god you were not the one judging our appeal.
From how I read your post we would have automatically been ruled out after your “tutored” question.
My daughter was tutored for 6 months before the 11+ and failed by 6 points, we had very strong mitigating circumstances and could prove that this wasn’t the “Norm” for her.

My question to you is how you differentiate between a child who’s parent tells you they have been tutored and one who claim’s they haven’t but have?
From my point of view and luckily our panel’s point of view they didn’t want to cloudy the water by asking this question, thus judging only on individual cases, surrounding circumstances and evidence available to the panel.

Some parent’s not being truthful, (which is the case as seen across the whole country “My child didn’t have a tutor,”) when in fact yes they did but they just won’t admit it to anyone.
Against someone being truthful and answering yes my child did have some tutoring.

To me your point is exactly the reason why these parents will continue to lie, so you don’t automatically put a strike against them.

Why ask the question in the first place?

Kind reagrds

AM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
Posts: 11949
Capers123,

I do not believe pupils are not tutored and would treat any statement to that effect with extreme caution. You may be penalising honest parents .....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7063
In this instance my experience was very different. We had up to a maximum of 1000 11+ appeals a year, and a pool of 80 to 100 panel members, so the composition of the panels was constantly changing. Despite all this, I don't recall the "tutoring question" ever being asked.

It's probably because panels liked to have some evidence for anything important. If parents had said "No, we didn't use a tutor," we would never have known - in a large LA - if they were telling the truth.

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Etienne


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:29 pm
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Location: Wirral
Capers123,

I hope my post hasn’t offended you that wasn’t my intention, more to point out exactly why appellants should NEVER admit to being tutored.

I for one am absolutely thrilled you have found this site, the more people with experience on the site the better it will become.
You can bring something only one other so far has brought to the site and that’s your side of appeals (A panel member’s view.)
There are plenty from my side of the fence! And no doubt always will be.

So please don’t take any offence with my post it was just my thoughts and response to what was posted.

Now can I tempt you into Rehab???

Glad your onboard..

AM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:48 pm 
I personally think that 'Capers' sounds totally unprofessional and has obviously let the power of being on an appeal panel go to her/his head. Obviously the moral of the story is IF you get asked the question, just lie what have you got to lose? roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
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"Guest"'s subsequent post breaches forum rules and has been deleted.

Rule 1: Be Polite

This seems obvious, however, many can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions.

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Etienne


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
'Capers' sounds totally unprofessional and has obviously let the power of being on an appeal panel go to her/his head.

I couldn't disagree more.

Although I would take a different view about the "tutoring question", Capers' other posts suggest to me someone who is very professional, conscientious and considerate.

Keep posting, Capers. Your contributions are much appreciated.

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Etienne


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: Gloucestershire
Anonymous wrote:
I personally think that 'Capers' sounds totally unprofessional and has obviously let the power of being on an appeal panel go to her/his head. Obviously the moral of the story is IF you get asked the question, just lie what have you got to lose? roll:


The problem is, I can only take responses at face value. I think most of our appealants are honest. A little bit on tutoring doesn't matter. There is at least 1 private school nearby where we know they are coached from year 3 - it is almost an 11+ factory.

We're also friendly - and try to encourage parents to open up. I want to let the children in, but we also want to be fair to those not tutored. You (pl) may decide to lie - that's down to your own conscience. But if you have 2 children, 1 tutored and one you're sure not tutored, with equal scores and equal reasons they should get in - and one place to allow, which would you allow?

As for professional? I'm not. I'm an amateur. I do the statutory training session once a year (1/2 day). I sit 2 days per year on the panel (from my own holiday allowance). I'm unpaid. I'm independent from the school and from the parents. I think you get a fresh, independent and fair decision from me - one that I would hope to get myself. If you want professional, then you'll get someone who becomes so cynical, they probably allow 1 or less per year. It's such an honour to be elected to the panel, of course, after such a long recruitment process (I saw an ad in the local paper, 'phoned up, sent back the application form, and was in - as was the other person that answered the ad).

It's nice being able to help a small handful of children each year - sometimes despite the parents. For instance, the child who did not practice papers, not even the one sent by the school, had no tuition - and the mother turned up at the appeal with no paper work ("oh, was I meant to?"). He'd scored 1 point under the entrance mark - weird, artistic family living on another planet. I championed him, and found out after the appeal chatting to some friends who knew the family that what she'd said was true (and, no, I didn't break any confidence in asking). Or maybe I should have let a child with pushy parents who could afford to fork out a lot of money to boost his results in instead? Easy decision!

There are a lot of children round here who are not tutored - don't forget, I'm also a parent, listen to playground chatter and to friends as well - and the intake of the school is not exclusively middle class - it nicely mixed.

I'm not saying I will not have my children tutored - I know that this is not a level playing ground, and don't want them to score less than a less-able but tutored child, but when it gets to appeal level, I feel being untutored counts for something.

Perhaps I'm an innocent. Maybe I should assume that all parents are lying all the time - but I don't because I know there are some honest people in this world.

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Capers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:29 pm
Posts: 2049
Location: Wirral
Quote:
Capers' other posts suggest to me someone who is very professional, conscientious and considerate.

Keep posting, Capers. Your contributions are much appreciated.



I totally echo that Etienne!

Keep posting, we need you Capers123!!!!!!!

AM


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