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 Post subject: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:26 pm 
hello to every body
It has been a few days now since our appeal failed Iwould like to make sense of it all and put it away till 12 plus in next county if that fails then maybe decision correct. however some niggles persist. quote
In the appeal panel admissions letter sent before appeal [if the panel is
considering allowing some but not all appeals it may need to compare the circumstances of one parent with another to establish which appeal should succeed ] why should the parents be compared? also any complaints may be made to the secretary of state for education no mention of the ombudsman I have not recieved written refusal yet I SHALL request the clerks notes well the solicitor he did not write down much though other concerns I have voiced before on this forum any replys or comments i would be really gratefull
best wishes to all
lucy


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 Post subject: Re: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Gloucestershire
lucy wrote:
In the appeal panel admissions letter sent before appeal [if the panel is
considering allowing some but not all appeals it may need to compare the circumstances of one parent with another to establish which appeal should succeed


The only time something like that is involved is in the case of 'looked-after children' (aka in care), - but that's when the scores are the same in the exam.

It may be that they look at where you live if catchment areas are mentioned in admissions docs. But otherwise I think this is wrong.

Quote:
I SHALL request the clerks notes well the solicitor he did not write down much


You could also ask for the notes that each panel member made, if any. They must be kept in case of going to the ombudsman.

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 Post subject: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 19
Location: dorset
hello capers
many thanks for your prompt reply I wonder also what you think of one of the panel saying my son very able but he not think outstanding and he must be for grammer that did throw me at that point I became even more nervous sounded so shaky reading out summery so if they were comparing parents no wonder my son was refused a place.
lucy

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 Post subject: Re: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: Gloucestershire
lucy wrote:
I wonder also what you think of one of the panel saying my son very able but he not think outstanding and he must be for grammer

Dunno. Could be that your child is very gifted in one area but not in others? Or that your child is very bright but not exceedingly bright. Just because a child just misses the pass mark does not mean that they are not bright or able - they must be pretty good, otherwise they wouldn't of almost made the pass mark. But to say 'he must be for grammar' confuses me. Are there other grammar schools in your area with a lower pass-mark - it certainly is known within my area that different schools have a different 'lowest admission score'? So maybe he/she meant 'good enough for a grammar, but not this one'?

Quote:
at that point I became even more nervous sounded so shaky reading out summery so if they were comparing parents no wonder my son was refused a place.


No. We never compare the performance of the parent at the appeal - or perhaps I should say 'we never take the performance of parents into account', as it is noticeable. I remember one of my panel saying "she put that case over well", but that appeal was not allowed for other reasons.

The appeal is about the child, not the parent. Hence, neither do we take into account any mentions of parental involvement in school ('I've been on every school trip') or position in current schools PTA. Once I remember a parent saying that they'd supported every possible PTA event of the school they were appealing for in the last year (and no, they didn't have a child further up the school); it doesn't matter. It's not an audition. We have no interest in what a parent can offer to the school, it's how well the child will do that matters.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:12 pm 
Quote:
very able but he not think outstanding and he must be for grammer


Just a thought - does this mean that the panel member thought the child was "very able" but for the grammar school under appeal "outstanding" was required ....


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 Post subject: Re: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7059
capers123 wrote:
lucy wrote:
In the appeal panel admissions letter sent before appeal [if the panel is
considering allowing some but not all appeals it may need to compare the circumstances of one parent with another to establish which appeal should succeed


The only time something like that is involved is in the case of 'looked-after children' (aka in care), - but that's when the scores are the same in the exam.

It may be that they look at where you live if catchment areas are mentioned in admissions docs. But otherwise I think this is wrong.

It is correct.

In multiple appeals for an oversubscribed school, the panel has to consider in each instance whether the strength of the parental case outweighs the prejudice to the school.

However, the code of practice then goes on to say:
if there are several cases which outweigh the prejudice to the school and merit admission, but the panel determine that the school could not cope with that number of successful appeals, the panel should then compare cases and decide which of them to uphold.
In other words, the most compelling cases are upheld one by one, until the point is reached where the prejudice to the school (as a result of the additional numbers) outweighs the strength of the remaining parental cases.

To give an example:
1. 30 children who are deemed "qualified" are appealing for an oversubscribed grammar school.
2. The panel considers each case, and decides that the parental arguments in 12 cases outweigh the prejudice to the school.
3. However, the panel also decides that the school couldn't possibly cope with 12 extra pupils.
4. The 12 pupils are therefore ranked according to the strength of their case.
5. Starting at the top, the panel then works its way down the list, asking itself "Where does the greater prejudice lie?" It upholds the 6 strongest appeals, but when it comes to the 7th it decides that the prejudice to the school (after 6 extra admissions) now outweighs the strength of the 7th and subsequent cases.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:11 pm 
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solimum not logged in wrote:
Quote:
very able but he not think outstanding and he must be for grammer


Just a thought - does this mean that the panel member thought the child was "very able" but for the grammar school under appeal "outstanding" was required ....

Yes, I think it depends how "very able" and "outstanding" are defined.

In some parts of the country, the standard for grammar school entry might be equivalent to the 90th percentile in nationally standardised tests. This is clearly outstanding.

I would have thought a pupil at, say, the 80th percentile must be very able - but this wouldn't necessarily be grammar school entry standard.

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 Post subject: Re: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
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lucy wrote:
any complaints may be made to the secretary of state for education - no mention of the ombudsman

The Department for Education can be involved in the following [limited] circumstances:

4.89 The Secretary of State cannot review or overturn decisions of individual appeal panels but can consider:

• whether the appeal panel was correctly constituted by the relevant LEA responsible; and
• whether the admission authority or governing body has acted reasonably in exercising functions in respect of the appeal process.

4.90 If, for example, the Secretary of State is satisfied that the LEA or governing body has failed to constitute an appeal panel properly, it can be directed to appoint a properly constituted appeal panel.


I am surprised that there has been no mention of the ombudsman. An authority was criticised by the Local Government Ombudsman recently for failing to "signpost" the fact that appellants are entitled to take a complaint to him.

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 Post subject: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 19
Location: dorset
hello etienne capers and all
many thanks for all your input my appeal focused on the academic evidence there were mitigating circumstances but in summing up i did say i did not know what effect this had on 11 plus I know i would not have gone to appeal without the great support from primary.
91-93 percentile
ks1 level3
ks2level 5 and above
top of class in science
ect
ect
I DO WONDER WHAT ESLE I SHOULD HAVE DONE apart from being a wreck on the day its not something you expect to take over your life so much but you all have been a great help do have more questions tomorrow sorry
love lucy

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 Post subject: Re: appeal confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: Gloucestershire
lucy wrote:
apart from being a wreck on the day


Hey - we're really not judging parents. Really not! Being a wreck would not have made a panel take the case less seriously. Many parents are wrecks - don't blame yourself!

We have to draw a line somewhere. The difference between accepting an appeal & rejecting it can be very, very thin, and it's so unlikely that it was the way you conducted yourself on the day of the exam.

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