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 Post subject: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:16 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
We have our appeal next week for tunbridge wells boys' grammar. At present they are five under pan. Say they decide that 20 boys should have had a grammar school assessment, how do they determine who out of the 20 gets one of those spaces? Is it by applying the oversubscription criteria (hope that they do as we are 0.26 miles away!).


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm
Posts: 1068
Location: Lincolnshire
No, if they deem more children qualified than there are places, they will go on to consider which of those have reasons for going to that school which outweigh the prejudice to the school in taking an extra pupil. If there are more of these than they feel the school can manage they will go on to compare the cases to select the most "deserving" of the number of places they feel the school could manage.

Your reasons for wanting a place at the school may, therefore, be very important.


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:16 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Thanks Alex, our whole appeal is based on why we want a place at the school rather than oversubscription anyway. But waht would happen if there were two equally deserving candidates for one place and one lived on the doorstep and the other lived the other side of Sevenoaks? Surely they must have some kind of criteria and I would have thought that over subscription would be the obvious one to follow? Or put it another way say that they say 20 boys are suitable but they only have five spaces so they allocate five spaces but presumably if the appeal board say they think the others are suitable for grammar they can then go on the waiting list can't they? And the places on that would be allocated as per oversubscription criteria?


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 8228
As I understand it they really should not apply oversubscription criteria in their decision making. Maybe some panels make this mistake, but it's wrong I think.

Also, you can't go on the waiting list just because the panel accepts your argument that the child is of grammar ability.

But wow that the school is 5 under PAN and hearing appeals. This presumably means that they do not have any children on the waiting list who passed the Kent selection test?

No pressure on boys grammar school places in West Kent this year then! No children from Sevenoaks who passed the test having to travel further than TWGSB.

The extra classes this year have clearly mopped up the problem. But who knows what future years will hold.


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:16 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
But how do they decide between two equally deserving boys if there is only the one space? Surely there must be some criteria?

I do know how lucky we are that there are far few boys chasing a place this year!


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:56 pm
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Goodness knows. It's up to each individual panel. It's an art not a science. If I were a panel member I'd be trying to work out which child I felt was the better academic fit with the school but I don't know if this is allowed either as a pass is a pass at TWGSB, and if the panel is accepting that the child is of grammar ability, then it must be "other reasons" that are important. Sorry - maybe Etienne can explain as it feels like cutting fog to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm
Posts: 1068
Location: Lincolnshire
twellsmum wrote:
But waht would happen if there were two equally deserving candidates for one place and one lived on the doorstep and the other lived the other side of Sevenoaks? Surely they must have some kind of criteria and I would have thought that over subscription would be the obvious one to follow?


I think it would not be possible to have set criteria. People's circumstances and needs are so varied that I do not envy Appeal Panels the judgements they have to make sometimes. Proximity to the school might be just one factor that may be taken into account but it would all depend on the circumstances - what if that child from the other side
of Sevenoaks has been allocated a school in a place where resides someone who abused them and all the professionals feel that she should not be near there; what if the child who is very near the school has another school also in easy reach, etc, etc.

Where I am I think Appeal Panels often seem to like to effectively put a child back to where they might have been on original allocation had they passed the exam in the first place and in area children who are deemed qualified at appeal have a good chance of getting a place even if the school is now oversubscribed, but I have never seen this openly stated and I have no idea if this happens elsewhere.

Quote:
presumably if the appeal board say they think the others are suitable for grammar they can then go on the waiting list can't they? And the places on that would be allocated as per oversubscription criteria?


Yes, anyone deemed qualified who did not get a place would take their correct space according to the oversubscription criteria on the reserve list.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Kent appeal question
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7063
Quote:
I think it would not be possible to have set criteria.
I agree with Alex - it's an impossibility.

If you want clear criteria, there's the 11+ for qualification, and oversubscription rules for admissions.

If those criteria are to be overruled, an appeal panel has to make judgements that take account of all the circumstances!

Quote:
Yes, anyone deemed qualified who did not get a place would take their correct space according to the oversubscription criteria on the reserve list.
I have a feeling this hasn't happened in Kent (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but that within the LA there was some discussion about the issue last year.

I suspect not all panels may have been making clear in their decisions whether or not the child was deemed by them to be qualified. They may have been listing all the points taken into consideration, and then giving an overall 'Yes' or 'No'.
Take this case for example:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15339
(It took the ombudsman to sort out what view the panel actually had of the arguments for qualification!)

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Etienne


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