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 Post subject: Advice re review
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:41 am 
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Hi to all, I'm afraid I only registered with this site this week despite shamelessly using it's resources for the past few years!

DS is at Grammar and DD received her results on Friday but has unfortunately not passed with a mark of 109. This is ironic as she is far brighter than her brother!

We are preparing the paperwork for a review and would welcome any advice.

The school have provided a pretty glowing assessment and have given her a 2:1. recommendation. The head is very supportive and I know that they are strictly objective when recommending pupils.

DDs academic details

Reading: End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b
Writing: End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b
Maths End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b

2010-2012 VR 115, 122, 116
2013 Reading age - 15 yrs 3 mths
2013 Spelling age - 13 yrs 3 mths

These are the scores on the sheet from the school, I understand that the Sats grades are teacher assessed. The scores were reflected in her sats tests, with her achieving 5cs in reading and writing and exceeding expectations in maths with a 5b

There were some extenuating circumstances which were logged with the school at the time, and these are noted on the form and supported by a doctor's letter. (Maternal grandfather was very ill and mum had to stay away from to to be with him in the lead up to test).

I am unsure about how to present certain points and would appreciate any help or advice forthcoming.

Low KS1 Scores - Scores were 2b at the end of KS1. Should I simply not mention this, or should I use them to illustrate the fantastic progress DD has made. In Ks1 DD was rather withdrawn but really has blossomed since.

Relatively low VR Scores - I'm sure that the panel will spot this and I really have no explanation of why they appear to be out of kilter with the sats.

New scoring system - In the old system, a score of 109 would put DD below the 50th percentile, In the new system it would appear that 109 much nearer the 60th (I think!), Should I trust the panel to know this? Should I mention it?

Should I mention sibling at Grammar?

DD plays in several bands at our music centre. Is it appropriate to mention that the preferred Grammar has fantastic music facilities where we feel DD will be more able to reach her potential?

Like so many others we are at a loss as to what happened on the day of the test, we are considering having a WISC test carried out to see if that flags up any issues. Would the results be considered by the panel?

Many thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7065
Welcome!
I've moved your post to Appeals where we can deal with individual cases.

Dragonamp wrote:
The school have provided a pretty glowing assessment and have given her a 2:1. recommendation. The head is very supportive and I know that they are strictly objective when recommending pupils.
Good - it will be obvious to a panel from the statistics whether the 2:1 is realistic!

Quote:
Reading: End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b
Writing: End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b
Maths End of Y5 - 5c Current - 5c Predicted at end of Y6 - 5b
Good - but normal progression would be from 5c to 5a!

Quote:
2010-2012 VR 115, 122, 116
The main weakness in your case, I think. You might have got away with 122 on its own, I can't say, but it's more difficult with the three scores.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b57

Quote:
Low KS1 Scores - Scores were 2b at the end of KS1. Should I simply not mention this, or should I use them to illustrate the fantastic progress DD has made. In Ks1 DD was rather withdrawn but really has blossomed since.
The KS1 results are likely to be reported by your headteacher anyway, because there's a space for them on the headteacher's review summary sheet. I think a very brief comment from you could help.

Quote:
Relatively low VR Scores - I'm sure that the panel will spot this and I really have no explanation of why they appear to be out of kilter with the sats.
They measure different things - SATs, to some extent, are a reflection not only of ability but of the pupil's motivation, the quality of the teaching, and the ethos of the school. Reasoning tests try to be more a measurement of innate ability. Unfortunately this is not the sort of explanation you can put on a review or appeal form!

Quote:
New scoring system - In the old system, a score of 109 would put DD below the 50th percentile, In the new system it would appear that 109 much nearer the 60th (I think!), Should I trust the panel to know this? Should I mention it?
I would leave that to the panel. It's misleading anyway to talk of percentiles which usually refer to nationally standardised tests. The panel will understand that scores are now more 'stretched out'.

Quote:
Should I mention sibling at Grammar?
No - that would be solely an argument for an oversubscription appeal.

Quote:
DD plays in several bands at our music centre. Is it appropriate to mention that the preferred Grammar has fantastic music facilities where we feel DD will be more able to reach her potential?
No!

Quote:
Like so many others we are at a loss as to what happened on the day of the test, we are considering having a WISC test carried out to see if that flags up any issues. Would the results be considered by the panel?
Yes - and here we can talk percentiles. Ideally you would want percentiles for cognitive ability in the 90s - preferably the upper 90s!

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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:44 am
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Thank you Etienne, that is very helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:44 am
Posts: 33
Hi again Etienne, have been thinking about the points you have raised and have decided to go ahead with the WISC test, which is arranged for tomorrow.

Will post the results ASAP.

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7065
It would check whether there is a problem such as processing speed.
There is also the possibility it might deliver alternative evidence of verbal comprehension and of perceptual reasoning.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... ication#b3

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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:36 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:44 am
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Thank you, I will check that the test includes that element.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 17
what are wisc tests?


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7065
Follow the link to the Q&As ......
Etienne wrote:
It would check whether there is a problem such as processing speed.
There is also the possibility it might deliver alternative evidence of verbal comprehension and of perceptual reasoning.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... ication#b3

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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:44 am
Posts: 33
Hi Again, just back from test with DD.

Just spoke with an appeals specialist to get a second opinion, so to speak.
He thought that a review at present may be very risky due to having to prove maladministration of the review at any later appeal. I have seen similar advice on this site of course, but know several parents that have had a successful appeal after an unsuccessful review, and was thinking about taking a chance and crossing my fingers about a later appeal.
I have also spoken to admissions at Bucks and was told that a review would probably help with an appeal, advice echoed by our headteacher.

I had a quick look on the Bucks website to check how they have worded it.

http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/education/sch ... mZMnlPyCfM

They reiterate there that a review will possibly rule out a successful appeal.

However, you should be aware that the Independent Appeal Panel is restricted by the School Admission Appeals Code of Practice to consider only whether your child's review was carried out in a fair, consistent and objective way. Only if there is no evidence that this has been done, can the panel go on to satisfy themselves that there is evidence to demonstrate that your child is of the required academic standards for grammar school.

However, there is a table at the bottom of the page which appears to indicate that parents appealing after an unsuccessful review are more likely to succeed than those appealing without a review.

I'm not sure whether or not I'm going a bit bonkers, but none of this information seems to be presented in a clear and coherent way by the authorities.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice re review
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7065
Dragonamp wrote:
Just spoke with an appeals specialist to get a second opinion, so to speak.
He thought that a review at present may be very risky due to having to prove maladministration of the review at any later appeal. I have seen similar advice on this site of course, but know several parents that have had a successful appeal after an unsuccessful review, and was thinking about taking a chance and crossing my fingers about a later appeal.
Which brings us back to what I've written in the Q&As ....... :)
      Quote:
      We never advise one route rather than another on the forum, because there are no easy answers. We can only say “Whatever you do will be a bit of a gamble – just be aware of all the issues which no one else will be telling you about”.
      I’m afraid if you go straight to appeal, and it doesn’t work out, you’ll be saying “If only we had gone to review.”
      And if you go to review and it doesn’t work out, you’ll be saying “If only we had gone straight to appeal”!

      http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... aneous#e33

Quote:
I have also spoken to admissions at Bucks and was told that a review would probably help with an appeal, advice echoed by our headteacher.
Wrong - it would neither hinder nor help (assuming the review is found not to have been 'fair, consistent & objective'). In this situation an appeal panel would take a completely fresh look at the case.

Quote:
I had a quick look on the Bucks website to check how they have worded it.

http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/education/sch ... mZMnlPyCfM

They reiterate there that a review will possibly rule out a successful appeal.

However, you should be aware that the Independent Appeal Panel is restricted by the School Admission Appeals Code of Practice to consider only whether your child's review was carried out in a fair, consistent and objective way. Only if there is no evidence that this has been done, can the panel go on to satisfy themselves that there is evidence to demonstrate that your child is of the required academic standards for grammar school.
This is the Appeals section of the website. They are independent and separate from Admissions. Here they are setting out what the Appeals Code says.

Quote:
However, there is a table at the bottom of the page which appears to indicate that parents appealing after an unsuccessful review are more likely to succeed than those appealing without a review.
And here they are reporting what happened in practice. However, the figures for those appealing without a review are pretty meaningless, because last year parents were misled. Follow the link in E34:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... aneous#e34
      Quote:
      • 20 cases were heard where the appellants had not participated in the selection review process.
      • 2 of these were successful.
      • This seems a very low figure. Our suspicion is that these may have been mostly children moving into the area (as opposed to local families who had been misinformed that they had to go through a review!). These parents, on the other hand, were less likely to have been pressured into a review, especially if they were appealing when it had been belatedly acknowledged that there is a legal right to go straight to an independent panel. Coming from other LAs, their academic evidence may have been insufficient (e.g. no KS2 sub-levels, no alternative reasoning tests, no realistic headteacher support).

Quote:
I'm not sure whether or not I'm going a bit bonkers, but none of this information seems to be presented in a clear and coherent way by the authorities.
I think they are just pointing out - quite correctly - what the Appeals Code states.

An unknown factor in all this is whether or not individual appeal panels will find the review in any particular case to have been 'fair, consistent & objective'. Some will, some won't - because they're independent.

In my view you're faced with this cruel dilemma because the grammar schools have chosen to try and enforce 'fair, consistent & objective', probably hoping that parents will be discouraged from appealing, and thereby saving them money. Kent has a better system - they have a form of review, but do not apply the 'fair, consistent & objective' test. Everyone there is allowed have their case heard in full in front of an independent appeal panel, irrespective of any review.

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