post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper appeal?
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Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
I'm guessing that the LA see an issue with Leadership and Management if teachers are entering pupils against DfE advice.
Pupils should only be entered for the level 6 test if 'they are already working above level 5' according to the DfE; clearly a level 5 teacher assessment does not indicate a level 6 entry is appropriate.
Pupils should only be entered for the level 6 test if 'they are already working above level 5' according to the DfE; clearly a level 5 teacher assessment does not indicate a level 6 entry is appropriate.
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southbucks3
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Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
His maths to quote the teacher on parents eve was terrific in October, and she was very pleased with his progress and quick understanding. He can't problem solve, just doesn't seem to be able to get his head round it, he has a mental block, and believe me he has tried everything and every book, he even spent some time in a high achieving group of kids doing puzzles and problem solving after achieving 4a in his first tests of year 5, but got moved out, as the teacher said he looked scared all the time, and he admitted he struggled. I am hoping he will eventually just click, because it is so useful in life and is a step towards using equations and trig in secondary school.
His cem funnilly enough was a reverse of his last cat with higher vr, lower maths, this was as expected as he loves his English. The teachers and I put his cat vr score down to it happening just as his eyes started to play up, he had just got glasses, but he had practically given up reading in the months before due to tracking difficulties and headaches bless him.
I don't know how he achieved 125 in his qr on the cats, but the year before he got full marks on his qr! so you are right mystery, it would be interesting to see what the difference is, perhaps cats are just straight questions?
Anyway, Christmas is near, we will enjoy that before worrying any more about tests, and I can continue teaching ds3 in his little steps towards next year....who's stupid idea was it to have three kids in quick succession!
His cem funnilly enough was a reverse of his last cat with higher vr, lower maths, this was as expected as he loves his English. The teachers and I put his cat vr score down to it happening just as his eyes started to play up, he had just got glasses, but he had practically given up reading in the months before due to tracking difficulties and headaches bless him.
I don't know how he achieved 125 in his qr on the cats, but the year before he got full marks on his qr! so you are right mystery, it would be interesting to see what the difference is, perhaps cats are just straight questions?
Anyway, Christmas is near, we will enjoy that before worrying any more about tests, and I can continue teaching ds3 in his little steps towards next year....who's stupid idea was it to have three kids in quick succession!
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
Their father's perhaps? Always quite keen on that particular type of creative activity, men, IME.southbucks3 wrote:....who's stupid idea was it to have three kids in quick succession!
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
But is Bucks gathering data on that? I thought you said that Bucks was gathering data on level 6 entries versus level 6 passes. This will surely make schools feel nervous in some way about entering children for level 6 even if they are "working above level 5". It seems as though the DfE is more gung-ho about entering children than Bucks as they have spent money on some research into the barriers which result in few children being entered for the level 6 papers; it would seem that the DfE is trying to encourage more entries, whereas as I would suggest that this data gathering by Bucks that you describe could be quite offputting for teachers and heads - particularly if they see it as you do that the LA is looking for some kind of issue with Leadership and Management by collecting the data you describe.Guest55 wrote:I'm guessing that the LA see an issue with Leadership and Management if teachers are entering pupils against DfE advice.
Pupils should only be entered for the level 6 test if 'they are already working above level 5' according to the DfE; clearly a level 5 teacher assessment does not indicate a level 6 entry is appropriate.
Assessment by APP and by old tests is an art not a science. Whether you can assess them for some work going into level 6 also depends on whether you have given them / taught them the work or not. Furthermore, there is always going to be an element of doubt about whether a child will get the threshold score on the day for a "level 6" in the primary level 6 paper. Even a child who has been working extremely clearly above level 5 for a long time could flunk it on the day.
Southbucks, your son must be able to do some "problem solving". It is not possible to have got to 4a without this. The questions at school, in the old KS2 papers, and in the optional year 5 papers (in which he got 4a I presume) are not just straight calculations - they are mostly worded problems.
Yes it's not worth worrying about, but if you want him to get to a level 5 at school in maths to help with the appeal next summer then it might be worth analysing this a bit further. I think you'll only see what is going on by sitting with him while he works through some appropriate problems in a Bond, Schofield and Sims or old KS2 test paper.
What element of the CEM test lead to him not making the "grammar" assessment score? Presumably that is the one for which you need the strongest academic evidence ready for appeal?
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
The DfE report was commissioned by the Government; hardly an independent view!
All the maths associations think the level 6 paper is not needed.
All the maths associations think the level 6 paper is not needed.
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
I'm sure that the maths associations are likely to be right but that's a different matter.Guest55 wrote:The DfE report was commissioned by the Government; hardly an independent view!
All the maths associations think the level 6 paper is not needed.
We won't have the level 6 papers for much longer. My understanding is that in 2016 when the first children will be tested at KS2 on the new curriculum the equivalent of level 6 (although levels will have gone) will be incorporated into the main test. Quite how that will work is just as much a mystery as everything else that Gove seems to have set in chain recently. Maybe a lot of children will spend a whole day doing a test which they can only do one small fraction of. I don't know.
But none of that is for Southbucks to be concerned about.
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southbucks3
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Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
Southbucks, your son must be able to do some "problem solving". It is not possible to have got to 4a without this. The questions at school, in the old KS2 papers, and in the optional year 5 papers (in which he got 4a I presume) are not just straight calculations - they are mostly worded problems.
Yes it's not worth worrying about, but if you want him to get to a level 5 at school in maths to help with the appeal next summer then it might be worth analysing this a bit further. I think you'll only see what is going on by sitting with him while he works through some appropriate problems in a Bond, Schofield and Sims or old KS2 test paper.
I think when I sit with him, it is:
a. The initial panic "oh he*l it's one of those"
b.trying to read it quickly whilst pulling out the info required doesn't work for him at all.
c. He feels too rushed in tests to highlight the number facts, so he can find them again quickly...a technique he must learn.
d.He then makes silly mistakes in his workings because he has rushed, often his answer will be 1 digit out .
e. He will fall for the red herring pretty much every time it appears.
When we slow things completely down, he is very slowly learning techniques such as writing down the four functions at the top of a page of problems as a prompt,, making sure all units are the same, and finding the relevant number facts. The mental block however rears its head, with even a smidgen of pressure, whether introduced by a clock timing him, or myself or a teacher waiting for the answer, or his own desire to answer quickly.
A brilliant example of this is a recent 10minute 11-12 bond test, he got 8/10, he got two very simple problems wrong, but in the same test he gave the answer to 3x2/5 as 1.2. I ticked it correct and asked him why he had converted it to decimal. He said he hadn't converted it, but 1/5 was 0.2, do 2/5 was 0.4 and he multiplied that by 3. He had naturally gone one step further than required, with absolutely no hesitation at all, because it was a straight question, he knew the fraction answer too.
So overcoming the panic, is the real problem, and I fear me stroking his neck won't be welcomed.in a class amongst peers or a real test.
Yes it's not worth worrying about, but if you want him to get to a level 5 at school in maths to help with the appeal next summer then it might be worth analysing this a bit further. I think you'll only see what is going on by sitting with him while he works through some appropriate problems in a Bond, Schofield and Sims or old KS2 test paper.
I think when I sit with him, it is:
a. The initial panic "oh he*l it's one of those"
b.trying to read it quickly whilst pulling out the info required doesn't work for him at all.
c. He feels too rushed in tests to highlight the number facts, so he can find them again quickly...a technique he must learn.
d.He then makes silly mistakes in his workings because he has rushed, often his answer will be 1 digit out .
e. He will fall for the red herring pretty much every time it appears.
When we slow things completely down, he is very slowly learning techniques such as writing down the four functions at the top of a page of problems as a prompt,, making sure all units are the same, and finding the relevant number facts. The mental block however rears its head, with even a smidgen of pressure, whether introduced by a clock timing him, or myself or a teacher waiting for the answer, or his own desire to answer quickly.
A brilliant example of this is a recent 10minute 11-12 bond test, he got 8/10, he got two very simple problems wrong, but in the same test he gave the answer to 3x2/5 as 1.2. I ticked it correct and asked him why he had converted it to decimal. He said he hadn't converted it, but 1/5 was 0.2, do 2/5 was 0.4 and he multiplied that by 3. He had naturally gone one step further than required, with absolutely no hesitation at all, because it was a straight question, he knew the fraction answer too.
So overcoming the panic, is the real problem, and I fear me stroking his neck won't be welcomed.in a class amongst peers or a real test.
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
OK. I'm not suggesting that this will definitely work - we are a family that gets the screaming ab dabs and running round the house over any maths problem that cannot be immediately grasped and solved but how about:
--- choose a problem which you know that your son has all the basic skills and knowledge to do but if he read it in one of those nasty Schofield and Sims books it would make him run a mile
---- type it out nice and big and make the wording as friendly as you can - change the numbers from the one you have taken it from in the nasty book
--- tell him that today he is going to work out with you how to do it, but not actually do it - then do that;
--- the following day go back together through the method, then leave him to actually do it
--- check it through together
--- the next day he does it completely on his own (hopefully)
--- the following day you give him two others which are the same but with different numbers
--- the next day he does the equivalent question from the nasty Schofield and Sims book or wherever you got it from, completely unaided
---- the next day dig out other equivalents from the nasty Schofield and Sims book and see if he can do them on his own. If not, go quickly back to discussing how to do it, but doing the doing the following day
When this type of problem is conquered, stick an example of one in a big scrap book called "Fearsome maths problems I conquered" or some such thing.
I find the print in Schofield and Sims mental arithmetic series very offputting. It is low contrast ( I don't think they want people photocopying it), very small, and crowded with insufficient white space to make it feel nice or leave room for jottings. Bond books are more appealing. I think my DD does better on similar questions in Bond than S and S because of this. Also, some of the S and S wording is weird - some of it would not be acceptable in a national test because it is not clear.
You might find that he prefers the space and clearer wording of old KS2 papers and the optional papers for years 3, 4 and 5. Many are available free on the web if you dig around.
Hope you don't mind me asking all these questions but my gut feeling is that you have something here that both is and is not related to the eyesight. It sounds like he certainly has the ability but there's some kind of "block" which maybe only you will have the time and the patience (ha - that's not me with my kids) to work through at home.
Once you get through it things will quickly mushroom. Maybe get the hang of doing "talking maths" with him in some very straightforward questions first. He tells you what he is going to do first (e.g. convert everything in the question to the units in the answer), then next (e.g. find out what one will cost) then next (e.g. multiply by 9 to find out what 9 will cost) etc etc.
Unless you see how he tackled the paper which he got 4a on and his mates got 5b you won't know why this happened. It could be lack of accuracy, it could be some concepts he is not secure with, it could be he is not yet working fast enough etc etc. Just knowing 4a is not much help to you.
Sorry I have not quite grasped which were the strong and weak areas in the Bucks test results. In a way, for the appeal, you need his year 6 school work to look at its best in those weak areas.
--- choose a problem which you know that your son has all the basic skills and knowledge to do but if he read it in one of those nasty Schofield and Sims books it would make him run a mile
---- type it out nice and big and make the wording as friendly as you can - change the numbers from the one you have taken it from in the nasty book
--- tell him that today he is going to work out with you how to do it, but not actually do it - then do that;
--- the following day go back together through the method, then leave him to actually do it
--- check it through together
--- the next day he does it completely on his own (hopefully)
--- the following day you give him two others which are the same but with different numbers
--- the next day he does the equivalent question from the nasty Schofield and Sims book or wherever you got it from, completely unaided
---- the next day dig out other equivalents from the nasty Schofield and Sims book and see if he can do them on his own. If not, go quickly back to discussing how to do it, but doing the doing the following day
When this type of problem is conquered, stick an example of one in a big scrap book called "Fearsome maths problems I conquered" or some such thing.
I find the print in Schofield and Sims mental arithmetic series very offputting. It is low contrast ( I don't think they want people photocopying it), very small, and crowded with insufficient white space to make it feel nice or leave room for jottings. Bond books are more appealing. I think my DD does better on similar questions in Bond than S and S because of this. Also, some of the S and S wording is weird - some of it would not be acceptable in a national test because it is not clear.
You might find that he prefers the space and clearer wording of old KS2 papers and the optional papers for years 3, 4 and 5. Many are available free on the web if you dig around.
Hope you don't mind me asking all these questions but my gut feeling is that you have something here that both is and is not related to the eyesight. It sounds like he certainly has the ability but there's some kind of "block" which maybe only you will have the time and the patience (ha - that's not me with my kids) to work through at home.
Once you get through it things will quickly mushroom. Maybe get the hang of doing "talking maths" with him in some very straightforward questions first. He tells you what he is going to do first (e.g. convert everything in the question to the units in the answer), then next (e.g. find out what one will cost) then next (e.g. multiply by 9 to find out what 9 will cost) etc etc.
Unless you see how he tackled the paper which he got 4a on and his mates got 5b you won't know why this happened. It could be lack of accuracy, it could be some concepts he is not secure with, it could be he is not yet working fast enough etc etc. Just knowing 4a is not much help to you.
Sorry I have not quite grasped which were the strong and weak areas in the Bucks test results. In a way, for the appeal, you need his year 6 school work to look at its best in those weak areas.
Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
Agree entirely! We always gave DD extra paper for working out. And as for that tiny purple typeface...mystery wrote: I find the print in Schofield and Sims mental arithmetic series very offputting. It is low contrast ( I don't think they want people photocopying it), very small, and crowded with insufficient white space to make it feel nice or leave room for jottings ... Also, some of the S and S wording is weird - some of it would not be acceptable in a national test because it is not clear.
DD (who, it turned out, has a very mild vision problem and has since been prescribed glasses) was always misreading numbers (5 for 3, not noticing decimal points, etc.) on these papers. And the miniscule font size used for fractions also floored me a few times!
These papers are very good in principle for building up speed and checking for "gaps ", but the presentation could be a bit more user-friendly.Marylou
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southbucks3
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Re: post 11+ mid year sats taken a dive? will it scupper app
Hello
Mystery I asked him if he wanted to do problem solving again,and go back to basics to mop up errors etc, and he was v v grown up about it, and agreed, because "I can't gain confidence by getting more low marks, and I will keep getting low marks until I am more confident".
So he has a special book, and the first thing he is tackling is areas and perimeters again. I asked him about re- exploring planet targ
He wants to stick to the little heinemann book st level 6, because his bruv is doing level 5 of that book..no sibling rivalry here 
the questions are fairly easy to read, and I have scanned and made the bigger and clearer and less on a page. The objective will be "finding the sum" because once he has it, he is pretty sharp, so like you say, won't even bother solving them to start with.
So here goes the plan! As for glasses and line guides, apparently his teacher caught him out today mixing a 3 and a 5 up on a question which he fessed up to when I did the "did you wear them nag" so hopefully that will focus both their minds on the necessity for him to wear his bl**dy glasses.
His comprehension dive of two sub levels we are just writing off as a bad test, he is champion at comp, and easily passed that bit of his 11+ test, so he will jump back up on that I am sure.
Thanks everyone for all your support, much appreciated.
Mystery I asked him if he wanted to do problem solving again,and go back to basics to mop up errors etc, and he was v v grown up about it, and agreed, because "I can't gain confidence by getting more low marks, and I will keep getting low marks until I am more confident".
So he has a special book, and the first thing he is tackling is areas and perimeters again. I asked him about re- exploring planet targ
He wants to stick to the little heinemann book st level 6, because his bruv is doing level 5 of that book..no sibling rivalry here the questions are fairly easy to read, and I have scanned and made the bigger and clearer and less on a page. The objective will be "finding the sum" because once he has it, he is pretty sharp, so like you say, won't even bother solving them to start with.So here goes the plan! As for glasses and line guides, apparently his teacher caught him out today mixing a 3 and a 5 up on a question which he fessed up to when I did the "did you wear them nag" so hopefully that will focus both their minds on the necessity for him to wear his bl**dy glasses.
His comprehension dive of two sub levels we are just writing off as a bad test, he is champion at comp, and easily passed that bit of his 11+ test, so he will jump back up on that I am sure.
Thanks everyone for all your support, much appreciated.
