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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:36 pm 
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I am not sure quite how put in words what I want to ask here, so I apologise if I waffle.
We were recently unsuccessful with our our non qualification appeal. I had heard out of the 39 appeals heard 30 (or 31 -I forget which one) had reached qualifying mark, but were oversubscription appeals. I know of 4 girls who didn't qualify and all lost their appeal, however, letter did read -the panel found your daughter to be of academic ability. So they found DD to meet academic standards but still didn't win.
I am wandering if only girls passing won their appeals. Our mitigating circumstances for her not doing as well as she should have were great, and I wander what you'd have to say to have won.
I asked clerk if she could tell me how many non quals were won. I also asked if she could give me a break down of how many appeals won each day, as I fear being heard 1st day of 3 very long days we may have been forgotten. I was informed they could not give me that info. I didn't think it breached any confidentiality so why not give it?Anyone know how I can get it? Also if each appeal is looked at on it's own merit, how could no non-qualification appeals be won even when they find children are found to be academic standard?
I hope I don't sound like I am being a sore loser.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:09 am 
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Do we know how many of these appeals overall were successful?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:31 am 
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8 out of the 39 were successful.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:22 am 
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Location: Gloucestershire
imustbecrazy wrote:
I also asked if she could give me a break down of how many appeals won each day, as I fear being heard 1st day of 3 very long days we may have been forgotten.

For all the appeal hearings I have sat on, I make my own copious notes during the appeal, as do the other panel members. These are separate from the even-more comprehensive ones made by the clerk - the verbatim record.

After all the appeals have been heard, we go through each appeal one by one, looking at the fine detail of the arguments made on both sides. We never forget anyone. I've heard appeals in the past that were spread over more than 2 weeks with >60 cases. The first ones heard had just as strong a chance as the ones on the last day. It could equally be argued that the panel was getting tired on the last day, or that the ones on the middle day all blended into one, but please rest assured that that doesn't happen. Even if one panel member forgot a point, they'd be reminded by the other panel members or the clerk of all the information. Last year the very first appeal I heard on the first day happened to be one of the ones successful.

As for number of appeals upheld from each day, that is down to the strength of each individual appeal. It would be wrong for a panel to use date and time of the hearing as part of the criteria for choosing which appeals to allow.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:40 am 
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imustbecrazy wrote:
letter did read -the panel found your daughter to be of academic ability. So they found DD to meet academic standards but still didn't win.
If I've understood correctly, they found your daughter to be academically suitable (which is excellent), but unfortunately you didn't get through the prejudice stage.
This is entirely possible.

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Our mitigating circumstances for her not doing as well as she should have were great, and I wander what you'd have to say to have won.
But if they've deemed her to be qualified, isn't the only remaining issue whether your reasons for wanting a place outweighed the prejudice to the school?

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I asked clerk if she could tell me how many non quals were won. I also asked if she could give me a break down of how many appeals won each day
It might not be unreasonable to try a Freedom of Information request, asking for the overall figures, i.e. how many of the 8 successful appeals had already qualified by means of the 11+?
See: http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeals/general#a19
If they still resist, however, your only recourse would then be a complaint to the Information Commissioner, which could take a very long time to resolve.

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I was informed they could not give me that info. I didn't think it breached any confidentiality so why not give it?
Under Freedom of Information, requests can sometimes be refused if the numbers are so low that there's a risk of individuals being identified. (I wouldn't have asked for daily numbers.)


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I fear being heard 1st day of 3 very long days we may have been forgotten.
I agree entirely with Capers that this simply doesn't happen.
Panel members make decisions based on their notes and the paperwork submitted - they do not rely on their memory!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:40 pm 
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We are in a similar situation - unsuccesful appeal, close to pass marks - letter states academic ability and strong support from head and extenuating circumstances but no given a place at grammar no mention of sibling already at the school and clerks notes are awful to read - poor record of the meeting - no mention of sibling


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:54 pm 
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You have to remember that if the school is oversubscribed, those who have passed the 11 plus but haven't got a place due to oversubscription who appeal, have to demonstrate that their reasons for needing a place outweigh the schools prejudice for being full. If you are a non qualification appeal you have the two hurdles, firstly convincing the panel that your DC is at the qualifying standard, but because the school is oversubscribed all that is essentially doing if you are successful on the non qualification part, is putting you in the same position as those who passed originally but didn't get a place due to oversubscription, the school is still full and you therefore have the second hurdle of overcoming the oversubscription part. The year we had a successful oversubscription appeal for DD, there was one non qualification appeal which had been 'deemed to meet the standard' but was placed on the waiting list, assumedly because they had been successful in the non qual part of their appeal but not the oversubscription part, so as Etienne says it is possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:44 pm 
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Stocky wrote:
The year we had a successful oversubscription appeal for DD, there was one non qualification appeal which had been 'deemed to meet the standard' but was placed on the waiting list, assumedly because they had been successful in the non qual part of their appeal but not the oversubscription part, so as Etienne says it is possible.

That's an intreging thought.

As I understand the appeals code, a panel only upholds an entire appeal or doesn't. Panels are not asked to decide if a child who has not won should be added to a waiting list.

I suppose a school could write into their Admissions Policy a line along the lines of 'the child can be added to the waiting list if an Appeals Panel finds that there is evidence to demonstrate that the child is of the required academic standards". They could get this information from the results of appeal letter. I think this would be full of difficulties, though, as where on any waiting list would the child be placed? Most waiting lists are ranked, firstly by exam score, then by other criteria (such as distance from school). No Appeals Panel would ever try to contrive an 'estimated score of any child deemed suitable' - that would surely be against 3.14 of the appeals code.

Just think of the number of complaints to the EFA / Ombudsman: "Not only did the Appeals Panel not uphold my appeal, but they ranked my child below child X for the waiting list".

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:56 pm 
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the appeal itself was dismissed. Its in the schools admissions policy - in the bit on past admissions.
"14 applicants qualified but could not be offered a place. These were placed on our reserve
list together with one that went to Appeal, the appeal was dismissed but it was decided
that the child be classed as qualified with a score of 220 and be added to the reserve list
making a total of 15
184 To join Y7 in September 2012 - 5 successful appeals"
The school rank on siblings and then distance, so I assume their place on the waiting list is based on distance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:11 pm 
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capers123 wrote:
As I understand the appeals code, a panel only upholds an entire appeal or doesn't. Panels are not asked to decide if a child who has not won should be added to a waiting list.
Agreed - but as Capers goes on to point out, the decision letter ought to explain the process by which the panel arrived at their decision. That should include the panel's view of qualification (where this is an issue).

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They could get this information from the results of appeal letter. I think this would be full of difficulties, though, as where on any waiting list would the child be placed?
'Qualified status' would be a matter for the appeal panel - but waiting lists are a matter for the admission authority/LA!

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Most waiting lists are ranked, firstly by exam score, then by other criteria (such as distance from school).
In Glos., yes, but not necessarily elsewhere.

Stocky has experience of a grammar school in Lincs. where this happens.

In Bucks not a single grammar school uses ranking by score for Y7 admissions. The decision letter indicates whether the IAP has found the child to be of the required academic standard, and - if so - the LA adds the child to the waiting list.

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