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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:09 pm 
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Hi, we received our letter today from the Grammar School - informing us of our hearing date for an appeal for a place for our DS. The hearing is to be on 12th May! Please could someone help me with the following questions?

1. The school have a PAN for September of 140, but has received acceptance letters from 169 candidates... not looking good. BUT...like myself, waiting for our Appeals hearing, do you think some of those 169 have 'accepted' an offer, as I did with a local high school - but they may be pinning hopes on another grammar school where they are appealing??

2. 'Net Capacity' is 946 pupils. What would be the difference between 'Gross Capacity' and 'Net Capacity'?

3. Would a school publish their KS3 SATs statisitics for last year? (Because the current year 10 at the grammar school is currently overcrowded - having an extra class. So - was this to the detriment of their learning?)

4. Finally, my DS's appeal is on the Thursday 12th May, when the Appeals for this particular school will begin on Monday 9th May - and continue until Friday! So... we will be one of the last to be seen! My question is this: IF the panel really DO decide on their decision immediately after the appeal hearing - will there be any 'places' left?? Will the panel know they have offered many places already - and therefore know they cannot uphold our appeal, even before we arrive??

5. Really finally! On the same subject, do any 'panel members' out there amongst you know if the decision is made before we enter the room (based on the evidence we sent/Headmaster's letter etc), with the chance for us to say our 'piece' just part of the protocols they go through?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:56 am 
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Olliesmum wrote:
Hi, we received our letter today from the Grammar School - informing us of our hearing date for an appeal for a place for our DS. The hearing is to be on 12th May! Please could someone help me with the following questions?

1. The school have a PAN for September of 140, but has received acceptance letters from 169 candidates... not looking good. BUT...like myself, waiting for our Appeals hearing, do you think some of those 169 have 'accepted' an offer, as I did with a local high school - but they may be pinning hopes on another grammar school where they are appealing??

I wouldn't worry about this, I think it is quite common for grammar schools to be asked to take an extra class beyond their PAN if there is a bulge year in admissions. I would be interested to know how they are going to arrange the 169 in classes. I would suggest that is 6 classes of 28/9 which would suggest that they could take an extra 11 beyond this before all the classes are full. Can you get figures for successful appeals in previous years. I wouldn't be surprised if they have even notionally allowed an extra 11 spaces for appeals.


2. 'Net Capacity' is 946 pupils. What would be the difference between 'Gross Capacity' and 'Net Capacity'?

Can't comment on this.

3. Would a school publish their KS3 SATs statisitics for last year? (Because the current year 10 at the grammar school is currently overcrowded - having an extra class. So - was this to the detriment of their learning?)

Not sure on this either.

4. Finally, my DS's appeal is on the Thursday 12th May, when the Appeals for this particular school will begin on Monday 9th May - and continue until Friday! So... we will be one of the last to be seen! My question is this: IF the panel really DO decide on their decision immediately after the appeal hearing - will there be any 'places' left?? Will the panel know they have offered many places already - and therefore know they cannot uphold our appeal, even before we arrive??

The school will judge each case on its merits and then will compare all the cases which they believe have merit at the end and decide which ones have the strongest case to allocate places to. You won't be disadvantaged in any way by going last. At the school we are appealing for, there were lots of successful appeals, but the school was deemed to be full so they had to be placed on the waiting list.


5. Really finally! On the same subject, do any 'panel members' out there amongst you know if the decision is made before we enter the room (based on the evidence we sent/Headmaster's letter etc), with the chance for us to say our 'piece' just part of the protocols they go through?


Can't comment on this but I would be horrified if this is the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:02 am 
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Olliesmum wrote:
Would a school publish their KS3 SATs statisitics for last year? (Because the current year 10 at the grammar school is currently overcrowded - having an extra class. So - was this to the detriment of their learning?)
KS3 SATs were abolished in 2010.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:39 am 
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Location: Buckinghamshire
Olliesmum wrote:
1. The school have a PAN for September of 140, but has received acceptance letters from 169 candidates... not looking good. BUT...like myself, waiting for our Appeals hearing, do you think some of those 169 have 'accepted' an offer, as I did with a local high school - but they may be pinning hopes on another grammar school where they are appealing??

All 29 should have accepted a lower preference as their "safety bet". Whether they are all appealing, no one can say apart from the LA Appeals Team.

Quote:
2. 'Net Capacity' is 946 pupils. What would be the difference between 'Gross Capacity' and 'Net Capacity'?
Net Capacity is the usable space, primarily for teaching; Gross Capacity includes areas such as kitchens, corridors, etc.

Quote:
3. Would a school publish their KS3 SATs statisitics for last year? (Because the current year 10 at the grammar school is currently overcrowded - having an extra class. So - was this to the detriment of their learning?)

As Amber said.

Quote:
4. Finally, my DS's appeal is on the Thursday 12th May, when the Appeals for this particular school will begin on Monday 9th May - and continue until Friday! So... we will be one of the last to be seen! My question is this: IF the panel really DO decide on their decision immediately after the appeal hearing - will there be any 'places' left?? Will the panel know they have offered many places already - and therefore know they cannot uphold our appeal, even before we arrive??

The panel do not decide oversubscription cases as they are heard. All the cases are heard and then the panel moves on to the "balancing stage", which is when they consider whether the detriment to the school of admitting an individual pupil is greater than the detriment to the pupil involved (or vice-versa.)

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5. Really finally! On the same subject, do any 'panel members' out there amongst you know if the decision is made before we enter the room (based on the evidence we sent/Headmaster's letter etc), with the chance for us to say our 'piece' just part of the protocols they go through?

It certainly shouldn't be. I can't vouch for every appeal panel in the country, but in Bucks, panel members would be horrified at the mere thought of this.

You might like to take a read of the Appeals Q&A, Section C, to put your mind at rest: http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... bed-school


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:05 am 
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KS3 teacher assessment continued after the tests were scrapped in 2008 until the new NC.

From http://www.naht.org.uk/welcome/news-and ... ssessment/

2014 key stage three teacher assessment

Following publication of the new national curriculum, the assessment arrangements for key stage three were disapplied from 2013. This means that in 2014 there will be no requirement for schools to report key stage three teacher assessment to the Department for Education (DfE) or to collect and submit data to the standards and testing agency via the NCA tools website.

There is also no requirement to report key stage 3 assessment to parents. The DfE sent a communication to schools and local authorities to confirm this change in October 2013.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Thank you all for your replies! I am very grateful for all this information.
I can see now that any form of KS3 data will not be publicly accessible, even though the school itself will have this information through teacher assessments!
I have been reliably informed by Appeals staff at my own school, that this '169' acceptances over 140 PAN is something I should question - as it will prejudice our chances - and it implies that they are expecting some to drop out? It also implies that there may be plans for an extra class??


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Location: Buckinghamshire
Olliesmum wrote:
I have been reliably informed by Appeals staff at my own school, that this '169' acceptances over 140 PAN is something I should question - as it will prejudice our chances - and it implies that they are expecting some to drop out? It also implies that there may be plans for an extra class??

Hmm ... If the school has offered 169 places, something is definitely wrong. On the other hand, if they have offered 140 places (PAN) and a further 29 prospective pupils have requested places on the waiting list, that is a different matter, and it would be the norm.

I think you need to clarify the terminology being used here. If you would like to PM me the name of the school I can at least check the Admissions Policy for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:37 pm 
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Location: Essex
It seems a lot to go over PAN by, but is is possible that the school offered down to the last applicant in a particular category, rather than applying the cut-off as they should do at PAN, finding that the 140th applicant falls part way through that category (if you see what I mean?)?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:59 pm 
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Yes - I am wondering if ALL of the boys in category 3 (Catholic boys who live in nominated local pastoral area), passed the exam? So yes, they would all be offered a place! But...how can the school stick to their 140 PAN in this scenario? They will surely have to put on an extra class?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:32 pm 
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Olliesmum wrote:
Thank you all for your replies! I am very grateful for all this information.
I can see now that any form of KS3 data will not be publicly accessible, even though the school itself will have this information through teacher assessments!
I have been reliably informed by Appeals staff at my own school, that this '169' acceptances over 140 PAN is something I should question - as it will prejudice our chances - and it implies that they are expecting some to drop out? It also implies that there may be plans for an extra class??


I'm pretty sure this happened in both the schools we applied to for our girls. The school was asked to take an extra class after the admission numbers were published. I'm assuming this is because there is a bulge year and they need more places.


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