11+ Appeal on 120
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Guest
Hi Sally-AnneSally-Anne wrote:Hi BAH
... <snip> ...
Ultimately the scores of 120/117 are good, and you need to prove that the 120 (plus his previous VR scores) is the better indicator of his ability. If you can do that, then the panel are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt on a score of 120. Make sure that you assemble as much solid academic evidence as you can.
Sally-Anne
"We" scored 117/109 and our previous year VR (Sept.2006) was 118. BUT we have a good supporting report from the head - are 10 out of 60 on the OoS and get a 2:2, plus our SATS predictions for May 2008 are 5c/5b/5c... Plus I home tutored. (In retrospect I think this was a mistake, I think a pro would probably have squeezed out the extra 4 marks....
)... So even though "we" have missed out on the VR by 4 marks, I feel that we have nothing to lose in the appeal because of the good academic record. Plus all the extra-curricula stuff which I won't go over the top on.
Am I clutching at straws here?!
Anyway, I am going to give it my best shot as I feel we have nothing to lose.
Now I've got the date (29 Jan), I think I'll do what one of the other correspondees said and type out the little speech that I have to give as I think this will definitely settle the nerves, plus provide an occupation for the hands.
OK - I am rambling now.
Ruth
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BAH
Hi there! well, our letter has gone in. We have very strong support from the head. We have put some wording in about the ranking and OoS because we wanted to deal with those potential 'queries' ahead of time and to try and answer any negative questions before they arose. Our son is at a school that is ranked very highly in the national league tables and they're outperforming county so we are hoping that will help our case. We really do believe past VR scores, current year 6 VR scores and a 120 mark will get us where we need to be. We have our date now and it's going to be nerve wracking. I don't think we can do any more than have our belief in ability, supporting evidence, a supportive head and a clear and balanced approach to it all.... we shall see!!!! Thank you so much for your help.
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Guest
Hi Guest and Guest55
Sorry for the late reply, other things have been catching up with me! (I also forgot to login when I last posted ...).
Re. child below on OOS getting in - I don't know - I guess I can ask the school. We were 10/60 and 10 were expected to pass, so I guess they (at least) got us "wrong".
Re. the 109 score - basically she found the second paper a lot harder, don't know why in particular, she finished both papers and on the first had a chance to go back and review answers.
Re. home tutoring - I haven't mentioned it on the form but was planning to mention it in my opening "spiel". If it's not a good idea then I won't do so!
Seasons greetings to one and all.
Cheers, Ruth
Sorry for the late reply, other things have been catching up with me! (I also forgot to login when I last posted ...).
Re. child below on OOS getting in - I don't know - I guess I can ask the school. We were 10/60 and 10 were expected to pass, so I guess they (at least) got us "wrong".
Re. the 109 score - basically she found the second paper a lot harder, don't know why in particular, she finished both papers and on the first had a chance to go back and review answers.
Re. home tutoring - I haven't mentioned it on the form but was planning to mention it in my opening "spiel". If it's not a good idea then I won't do so!
Seasons greetings to one and all.
Cheers, Ruth
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Mother of a Bucks year 6 pupil!
Mother of a Bucks year 6 pupil!
Ruthb,
I would not mention tutoring at all - it will not help.
If your child is in Y5 presumaby the school had strong evidence that early transfer was a good idea and that your child is able enough to cope with this. All this information will help - concentrate on the academic evidence - predicted KS2 levels etc.
They will ask about the 'gap' - just be honest - preferred the first paper
GOOD LUCK!
I would not mention tutoring at all - it will not help.
If your child is in Y5 presumaby the school had strong evidence that early transfer was a good idea and that your child is able enough to cope with this. All this information will help - concentrate on the academic evidence - predicted KS2 levels etc.
They will ask about the 'gap' - just be honest - preferred the first paper
GOOD LUCK!
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi Ruth
Guest55 is correct - you should not mention the tutoring, home or otherwise.
The official Bucks/NFER line is that the in-school familiarisation and practice papers represent a "saturation" level of preparation for the 11+. Tutoring beyond that is considered by officialdom to be unnecessary and ineffective.
The panel will discount any and all mentions of tutoring at an Appeal, even from parents who say "my child wasn't tutored".
Happy Christmas!
Sally-Anne
Guest55 is correct - you should not mention the tutoring, home or otherwise.
The official Bucks/NFER line is that the in-school familiarisation and practice papers represent a "saturation" level of preparation for the 11+. Tutoring beyond that is considered by officialdom to be unnecessary and ineffective.
The panel will discount any and all mentions of tutoring at an Appeal, even from parents who say "my child wasn't tutored".
Happy Christmas!
Sally-Anne
Appeal on 120 appeal is Monday aaarrrggg!
Hi,
since my original post and sending the letter in to county and getting our appeal date, we have put all thoughts of the appeal for our son on hold. However, since it's on Monday, we are preparing ourselves as much as we can. I have a few questions to ask regarding OoS, 3:1 ranking, academic evidence and mitigating circumstances:
1) OoS
Son is ranked 29/60. Last year the school's pass rate was 50%. 50% of children were ranked this year, so can we assume that they felt they would also get 50% pass rate this year? (They actually got 33% pass rate, and I believe were disappointed).
Our son's rank of 29 is based on previous VR test scores, I assume? He's had 123/119/120. And it's the 120 we are appealing on.
At the appeal we want to focus on the fact that the school must have expected him to pass? Do you think that is reasonable statement given the previous year's pass rate and his previous scores?
We have received a copy of the OoS. We know one other chjild, with previous scores less than 110 and an 11+ performance of 114/117 was ranked at least 6 places higher than our son. How can this be? (We know this because this is a friend of ours, is it reasonable to ask the school about this? Obviously it's someone else's child and we are not at liberty to question that but, would the appeal panel listen to this as 'fact' if it is purely annecdotal from us?
2) 3:1
We discussed this with the headteacher. In preparing her OoS she said the performance information came from two different teachers with different opinions about our sons's capabilities. One of them felt he would thrive in a grammer school setting, the other did not. The head teacher has reviewed the information and has given us a strong letter of support saying that she feels our son would thrive in a grammar school. Is this enough evidence of a change of opinion from a 3:1? I assume that if she now feels this and has said so in her letter then we don;t need anything more?
We know that the head would not support us if she did not feel it appropriate. We know of instances where she has not supported past appeals.
3) Academic evidence
Our son has had the following historical VR test scores: 123/119/120
He's borderline, not a massive high flyer, nor top of the class but he performs at this level consistently, without any extra-curricular help.
His CATs scores for all 3 subjects this year were 120/122/120 and are also consistent.
What we have is a child that is a good solid performer he is not massively fluctuating in his marks, in any subject, which we feel is a good point.
Can you please advise us on how we present this?
We do not want to take school reports nor his work into the appeal with us. We want to keep everything as factual and business-like as possible.
4) 120/117 and mitigating circumstances
Our son's marks for his two tests were 120 and 117. The first score of 120, he said when he came out that he felt it was quite hard, he finished with about 5 minutes at the end and had time to go back and check a few things. The second paper in which he scored 117 he said he felt was much easier and that he finished with about 25 minutes left. When we told the head this, she asked if it was possible he had missed some questions by mistake, I don't know but I would dearly love to see his paper!).
Between the dates of the tests my other half had gone away on a business trip, and it was his birthday. Our little boy was very upset at this and I do feel that his performance in the second paper, for this reason was affected. We had no contact with his Dad until he came home because of time difference and the fact that his mobile phone does not work there. We have explained this in our letter and we do believe that this affected his second score. Whilst we are appealing on 120, we believe that he should have got a higher than 120 score on the second paper, not necessarily the first.
Could you please let us know if you believe this is relevent?
Thank you so much for your time. I hope we haven't left it too late to get a reply!
best wishes
since my original post and sending the letter in to county and getting our appeal date, we have put all thoughts of the appeal for our son on hold. However, since it's on Monday, we are preparing ourselves as much as we can. I have a few questions to ask regarding OoS, 3:1 ranking, academic evidence and mitigating circumstances:
1) OoS
Son is ranked 29/60. Last year the school's pass rate was 50%. 50% of children were ranked this year, so can we assume that they felt they would also get 50% pass rate this year? (They actually got 33% pass rate, and I believe were disappointed).
Our son's rank of 29 is based on previous VR test scores, I assume? He's had 123/119/120. And it's the 120 we are appealing on.
At the appeal we want to focus on the fact that the school must have expected him to pass? Do you think that is reasonable statement given the previous year's pass rate and his previous scores?
We have received a copy of the OoS. We know one other chjild, with previous scores less than 110 and an 11+ performance of 114/117 was ranked at least 6 places higher than our son. How can this be? (We know this because this is a friend of ours, is it reasonable to ask the school about this? Obviously it's someone else's child and we are not at liberty to question that but, would the appeal panel listen to this as 'fact' if it is purely annecdotal from us?
2) 3:1
We discussed this with the headteacher. In preparing her OoS she said the performance information came from two different teachers with different opinions about our sons's capabilities. One of them felt he would thrive in a grammer school setting, the other did not. The head teacher has reviewed the information and has given us a strong letter of support saying that she feels our son would thrive in a grammar school. Is this enough evidence of a change of opinion from a 3:1? I assume that if she now feels this and has said so in her letter then we don;t need anything more?
We know that the head would not support us if she did not feel it appropriate. We know of instances where she has not supported past appeals.
3) Academic evidence
Our son has had the following historical VR test scores: 123/119/120
He's borderline, not a massive high flyer, nor top of the class but he performs at this level consistently, without any extra-curricular help.
His CATs scores for all 3 subjects this year were 120/122/120 and are also consistent.
What we have is a child that is a good solid performer he is not massively fluctuating in his marks, in any subject, which we feel is a good point.
Can you please advise us on how we present this?
We do not want to take school reports nor his work into the appeal with us. We want to keep everything as factual and business-like as possible.
4) 120/117 and mitigating circumstances
Our son's marks for his two tests were 120 and 117. The first score of 120, he said when he came out that he felt it was quite hard, he finished with about 5 minutes at the end and had time to go back and check a few things. The second paper in which he scored 117 he said he felt was much easier and that he finished with about 25 minutes left. When we told the head this, she asked if it was possible he had missed some questions by mistake, I don't know but I would dearly love to see his paper!).
Between the dates of the tests my other half had gone away on a business trip, and it was his birthday. Our little boy was very upset at this and I do feel that his performance in the second paper, for this reason was affected. We had no contact with his Dad until he came home because of time difference and the fact that his mobile phone does not work there. We have explained this in our letter and we do believe that this affected his second score. Whilst we are appealing on 120, we believe that he should have got a higher than 120 score on the second paper, not necessarily the first.
Could you please let us know if you believe this is relevent?
Thank you so much for your time. I hope we haven't left it too late to get a reply!
best wishes
Re: Appeal on 120 appeal is Monday aaarrrggg!
I doubt that a school should be basing its judgements on last year's pass rate - surely it should be focusing on this year's children?At the appeal we want to focus on the fact that the school must have expected him to pass? Do you think that is reasonable statement given the previous year's pass rate and his previous scores?
Headteachers are specifically warned not to make a direct correlation between other VR scores and the 11+ because of different standardisation etc.
I feel sure an appeal panel would not want to get involved in discussion about another child, although it would take account of the overall level of accuracy of the OoS.We know one other chjild, with previous scores less than 110 and an 11+ performance of 114/117 was ranked at least 6 places higher than our son. How can this be? Obviously it's someone else's child and we are not at liberty to question that but, would the appeal panel listen to this as 'fact' if it is purely annecdotal from us?
You can argue this, but a panel is likely to think "Why hasn't the head clearly stated that she would now consider your son to be a "3"?" [edited: I meant a "2", of course.The head teacher has reviewed the information and has given us a strong letter of support saying that she feels our son would thrive in a grammar school. Is this enough evidence of a change of opinion from a 3:1? I assume that if she now feels this and has said so in her letter then we don;t need anything more?
]My advice would be simply to tell the panel that there was some disagreement within the school about your son.
You'll have to concede that the standardisation is different - and it would be wise tactically to acknowledge this - but you can certainly point to the fact that he is consistently borderline.Our son has had the following historical VR test scores: 123/119/120
He's borderline, not a massive high flyer, nor top of the class but he performs at this level consistently ...
What we have is a child that is a good solid performer he is not massively fluctuating in his marks, in any subject, which we feel is a good point.
If you take neither, I'm worried that the panel might wonder what you're hiding.We do not want to take school reports nor his work into the appeal with us. We want to keep everything as factual and business-like as possible.
I honestly don't think your mitigating circumstances will carry much weight, but with 120 this shouldn't matter. I urge you very strongly to downplay mitigating circumstances - and not even mention them in your presentation. The panel are bound to ask you, at which point you could mention them very, very briefly, saying "We don't want to exaggerate the effect but they might have had some impact."120/117 and mitigating circumstances
With a score of 120, you don't need any more than "just a bit of an impact"!
I've given my honest opinion. Hope it helps.Thank you so much for your time. I hope we haven't left it too late to get a reply!
Etienne
Hi, Bah,
I think that the head's change from a 3 to a 2 is really relevant. For our appeal in January (we were lucky, we passed! 111/120) the head wrote on the form that she had changed the grades. When the LEA rep read out that my son had been graded as a 3, the panel chair interjected and explained that the 3 had been changed to a 2 and I felt a change of atmosphere from the LEA rep.
Would it be worth having another go at asking the head to commit to a 2 on paper? perhaps she feels unsure but mine did it and I've seen reference to an improved grade several times on this site - maybe that would encourage her if she knew it was not unusual. After all, children change, especially with a different teacher. At our appeal we referred to the difficult year our son had had in year 5 and although we didn't say as much, I think the panel suspected that the grade 3 had come from the Y5 teacher and that once he had had several weeks' teaching with a teacher who suited him more, the head realised that a 2 was more appropriate.
Anyway, I hope all goes well for you.
I think that the head's change from a 3 to a 2 is really relevant. For our appeal in January (we were lucky, we passed! 111/120) the head wrote on the form that she had changed the grades. When the LEA rep read out that my son had been graded as a 3, the panel chair interjected and explained that the 3 had been changed to a 2 and I felt a change of atmosphere from the LEA rep.
Would it be worth having another go at asking the head to commit to a 2 on paper? perhaps she feels unsure but mine did it and I've seen reference to an improved grade several times on this site - maybe that would encourage her if she knew it was not unusual. After all, children change, especially with a different teacher. At our appeal we referred to the difficult year our son had had in year 5 and although we didn't say as much, I think the panel suspected that the grade 3 had come from the Y5 teacher and that once he had had several weeks' teaching with a teacher who suited him more, the head realised that a 2 was more appropriate.
Anyway, I hope all goes well for you.